Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:43 pm

TheFoxSoft wrote:
Freshmaker wrote: If player 1 plays pbd it doesn't affect player 2 who plays nopbd. Perfect!


That's not exactly true, I need to defend differently when I play against PBDers (95% of total players).


I didn't know that. Thanks.

TheFoxSoft wrote:I still think Team A Dribble type chosen is the most balanced and fair option

I can see that. The only problem with this would be that we would need to revert to all matches being two-legged, to make sure we balance it all out. And that would put us in a position where you won't get to play the same number of opponents.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:52 pm

dndn1011 wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is no single gold standard version of Kick Off 2. This is where all this preciousness is flawed, and why we need to be more sophisticated: because all this bitching on FW for example does nothing to bring in those who love that version of the game into the community. This preciousness of particular versions of Kick Off is mirrored by the preciousness of the KOA towards itself.

We get it. You love your particular flavour of the game. But to keep on and on about it and make statements that sound like ultimatums all the time is not going to fix the problem.

These problems are solvable, but not if everyone goes around saying "the solution is simple, do it my way".

Can we start having a more sophisticated discussion around here?

Thanks Dino.
I would like to stress that I'm not bitching FW. I used to play it lots back in the days, and I'm looking forward to playing it again.

However.
We've always been using 1.4e and Oracle as the standards for ko2 (correct me if I'm wrong). And tbh, the main debates we've had are Trapfix yay/nay and recently Goalie-bug-fix yay/nay.

I was not aiming at making any "ultimatum" either, and I'm sorry if I was coming out like that. I'm simply stating what I think is right.


I think we need to realize we're preserving history here. And to preserve it is also to respect it. And to respect and preserve history is sometimes done best by taking it at face value, rather than "fixing" it.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby dndn1011 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:04 pm

As I have said before, Oracle was a crack and the only thing that made it a standard was that it was therefore free. There have been many versions of the game up to 1.7 I think. 1.4e and Oracle may be the standards you have been using, but my point is that people out there will have their own version they were familiar which and they like. Which makes it impossible to call 1.4 or Oracle "the standard" in some global sense. Which is important.

As I have said before at least one person at the World Cup this year noted that they had never seen the goalkeeper bug before and were quite disheartened to be playing a more buggy version of the game.

If we aim to bring as many Kick Off players in as possible, we need to be more sophisticated about how we look at the design of the game, and stop pretending that there is a gold standard version that morally is the one that is real.

There isn't.

There may be a KOA standard version, but there's plenty of debate about what that should actually be, and now we have a debate about what, if anything, should change. It cannot hurt to talk about game design instead of just showing allegiance to particular bugs or features.

My dream is for a new version of Kick Off 2 that everyone buys into. The secret of doing that is to design a solution that satisfies everyone (or as many as possible). Can we satisfy more people than we do currently? I think so. Should we try? Yes I think so, for the benefit of the community which would be for the benefit of everyone.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:44 pm

I wrote this yesterday in response to this comment from Dino, and then it got expanded into other things I read in other threads, so I didn't get around to sending it. Many of the things have since been touched on by others.

dndn1011 wrote:It is well known, that he who tries to keep hold everything is likely in the end to have nothing.


I'll always have the version of Kick Off 2 that I bought in a computer store. It's full of PBD goodness and goalkeeper madness. I loved it from day one, and I still love it today. A few years ago, I discovered that there's a whole bunch of other people our there that love it too. And they get together to play it. The same game. How lucky! For 25 years the game has been played, and it is perfect as it is. Perfect with all its intended features, and all its serendipitous bugs and design flaws. Thank you, Dino, for your genius invention, and for not initially discovering these bugs before we could enjoy them. I think there's a fair chance many of us may not be here today if any one of them had been fixed or changed.

You can think of the KOA as a family. Like other families they bicker and fight, they take vacations, and every year they get together to celebrate Christmas. Like other families, there are parents in the house. They pay the bills, keep the house in order and make sure the kids have fun. As in most families the kids take this for granted, and as in most families the parents, through experience, know best. They screw things up on occasion, but since it is a family, it survives.

So I discovered this family, knocked gently on the door, and was invited into their house. As I always do when I'm a guest in someone's house, I take my shoes off and I thread lightly. I observe for a while and try to understand their values. I find that if I do this, I soon get adopted into the family. I prefer this approach, as opposed to kicking in the door, telling them their carpet is ugly, and that it's my house too. With this family, I would still probably get adopted, but I prefer the other way.

I understand the fear that not being willing to change will turn people away. However, in this case I would point out an observation that old and new players are still showing up. They are showing up because they liked the original game(s), in spite of (and I guarantee this) that there were some things about it that annoyed them, and in spite of those things not having been changed. And I think in my case, if I had found that in this house the family was playing a different game, I would have simply gone back home to my house to play some Kick Off 2.

I am open to change. I personally just don't want to change the controllable gameplay. As Gianni said, the changes to the competition version so far have been made with wisdom and care. With the exception of PBDMIX, I don't think they have changed the controllable gameplay, and I suppose most or all can be considered improving the logistics of tournaments. I understand where Gianluca is coming from, and I would gladly play one PBD and one NOPBD game, if the logistics would afford it.

I choose to draw my line in the sand where it comes to controllable gameplay. For me, trapfix is on the other side of that line. A change to the GK behavior is so far beyond that line that I can't see it for the horizon.

Since the one invariant in all of this has been Kick Off 2, I think that if you change something about Kick Off 2, the probability is higher that you lose someone than gain someone. Risk/reward, I guess. There is a delicate balance, as Alkis said.

When there is a Kick Off 2 World Cup I will show up if possible. Perhaps there should be a separate FW cup. I wouldn't pay thousands of dollars to attend it, but maybe others would.

Does the KOA need a constitution? If you asked me I would say no. It seems to be parented quite well. If you read their history, it has survived much worse than the annual discussion about changing the game and tournament settings. But you shouldn't ask me, my shoes are still by the door.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:03 pm

Brilliant.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:50 pm

i get everything you're saying there about the game Thor, I really do, I disagree about the keeper bug as the game has been improved on by Steve C and I believe it should be continued further to clean up a horrible, obvious bug.

I also get the underlying 'please shut up noob and let others take care of things' message in there, which i won't agree with. I'm not a drone, I have my own mind and opinions and I think it's fair in a democracy that I can air them, sorry, genuinely, if this offends people, but if it does, you have to ask yourself why? We all know only too well what happens in places where people aren't allowed to speak their minds and get shouted down (for want of a better word) when they try.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:55 pm

What Rodolfo said.

And what Lee said.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby l00k » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:01 pm

dndn1011 wrote:As I have said before at least one person at the World Cup this year noted that they had never seen the goalkeeper bug before and were quite disheartened to be playing a more buggy version of the game.
.


That was me.

I still enjoyed it though

I agree don't change controllable play.

For me in KO2 the goalkeeper AI shouldn't be classed as controllable play. Being able to send him on a bender by going to a certain place on the pitch is just silly.

Its as silly as deactivating his arms when a lob comes in.

I'm 100% sure Dino would have patched this out if t'internet etc had been around back then.

But hey it wasn't and those quirks didn't put anyone off.

I'm happy to continue playing this great game patched or unpatched.

But I do agree with Dino, the preciousness has to go or the players will.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:15 pm

Lee, we all dislike some aspects of the game, of the tournaments, of the KOA... But honestly, it is uncommon to be as determined as you are in the propagation of what you dislike.

If you really find support to your idea, it will become a reality. If not, eventually, you will have to learn to live with it. It is not about big concepts as Justice, Democracy... It is little common sense.

I have been saying for forteen years that the yellow team should be orange. But I consider that once a year is enough. I also used to enjoy playing with light wind, and with the national teams instead a and b. But then Alkis and Robert threatened me to break my fingers, and I had to obbey and shut up :wink:
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:18 pm

so I should sit quietly in a corner?

have you considered that some might not say things as I have because of the fear of being bullied out once they do? I'm too stubborn and stupid to think of such consequences

I just speak my mind and answer posts that follow.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby dndn1011 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:20 pm

I am hoping that more people will have the courage to say what they think round here, without fear of broken fingers or even just hurt feelings :D
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:21 pm

I refuse to believe that here exists such thing as bullying.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby dndn1011 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:23 pm

Taking this one to another thread.

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