Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:20 pm

In my experience, even the modified, and current, version of the Trapfix makes a huge impact on gameplay. Let's be honest; if it didn't affect gameplay we wouldn't have this discussion... I can fully see, accept and agree with argumentation about the game seeming cleaner and more fluid with Trapfix enabled, but that's not always of the good.

And as long as there's no clear answers to wether it's a bug or not, I'm against it.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve1977 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:54 pm

Right then, this chat has been very enlightening and respectful so I'm tempted to throw something else into the mix... PBD and A=B. Two things I never knew existed until I ventured onto the forum back in 2006.

When any changes to the game we play at World Cups and tournaments rear their heads, the case is made that modifying anything too strongly means that it's not the game people grew up with and indeed it's important for people to be able to play it 'out of the box'.
So with this in mind I'd like to give my two penneth on the following


PBD - An artifact of a copied version of Kick Off 2 and in Dino's own words, is an artifact intended for the CPU and not the human player. You could argue that by catering for people who only remember PBD, is catering for people who used copied software (which is all of us I would imagine, but still, it shouldnt be in the game.


A=B and A>B
I understand why A=B is in the game...it's to ensure all players have a fair chance and everyone starts off on a level playing field. It's to also ensure that you don't require players to play each other x2 to even things up, but hear me out a second here...
This is a major modification of the game. If you have a top player such as Dagh beating you on Team A, then you have just as much chance as beating him as Team B - because there is no handicap to playing away.
If you're a fan of real football then the away team do have a disadvantage and have to cut their cloth accordingly. They may start off defensively or attack straight away before their attributes go down, but it requires an additional layer of thought into the game.
Away teams do have a disadvantage and Dino replicated this perfectly in the game. Perhaps it's because I only played a few tournaments with A>B but I'm actually really open to an idea of a A>B tournament.

Having A>B will mix things up. If you're playing a small tournament on a night and Player A is having a stormer then he will invariably win all night because the team he's playing with is identical each time, but having A>B will actually even things up for everyone else.

Also, it will actually help future world cups and give more players a crack at the jackpot. Why? Because the people with the knowledge of routines, extra tactics and exploits are indeed the ones who have a high chance of getting further in the tournament. So how can you re-address this for players without this knowledge? Easy... if Lee players Dagh, then Lee is Team A. Likewise, if Lee plays Steve Smith (who I beat 18-0), then Steve Smith is Team A. See what I mean? The groups are seeded.
Would make things doubly interesting and breath new life into future world cups.



Banning additional formations such as Lockout, Blitz
These wernt in any game I remember but anyway, you've been playing in a few tournaments, you know of a few routines and some of these are corner routines. You're playing a newbie and you absolutely give him the run around with the difference being those corner routines. He didnt know he could nullify them with lockout but when he had a corner, this is what you did. You could easily argue that the player with the knowledge of being a member of this forum and indeed the extra tactics, has an unfair advantage because it's totally true.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby iankay » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:15 pm

My view/vote:
Make Kick Off 2 like it was originally. No Autofix. No Trapfix. No A=B. Keep goalies that run behind the goal line. Keep goalies that cannot see lobs coming. Keep dismissed players sometimes coming back on for the second half; it is hilarious. Keep bye-line chips that should have bounced on the crossbar. Keep losing your substitute if you press F4 and the half ends before you can sub.

There is no such thing as "bug" and "no bug". There is Kick Off 2 as it was played in the 20th century with all its beautiful unfairness, and which newcomers know. Then there are fixes.

The only fix I would allow is allowing the choice of penalty box dribble. I would have an advantage if it was never there, but because I have read that originally there were two versions, one with and one without, it seems fair to keep it as an option.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve Camber » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:53 pm

Really interesting reading guys, fascinating to hear these differing opinions, keep them coming!
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:57 pm

as it stands now, with optional trapfix, with autoslides out, red cards being reds etc... do you think the keeper should stay on the pitch?
Last edited by Lee W on Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby dndn1011 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:06 pm

1 - Autoslide/-headers.
Not actually a bug; this was a design feature. I deliberately did this so that the aggressiveness attribute had some meaning on your team when you play; without it aggression meant nothing, because you totally control when slides occur. It was part of the simulation. However, I think it is annoying, especially when playing competitively. So I would *recommend* that this be turned off in competition, and if I get around to updating the game, it will be an option.

2 - Trapslide.
It is not a bug. It was designed this way; the idea was to make it risky to press the fire button. However, and this is an important point, if I were to go back in time and talk to myself, I would say "do everyone a favor and at least make sure that if the fire button is already down before the opposition gain possession, it does not register as a slide". My reasoning is this: you control when you press the fire button, but you do not control when the opposition gain possession. You hold the fire button down when you want to trap, not when you want to do a slide tackle. It is a poor design choice to have the change of game state change the meaning of the input. So it is a design flaw, one that I was awared of, but one that I did not change because the game was successful and I was afraid to change something so central to the gameplay.

The simple solution is to make slides only happen on a transition from not pressed to pressed when an opponent is in possession. I believe this is what Steve's fix does. It will mean that a slide is always a deliberate intention and will not happen by accident. This is what I recommend.

To justify the above, consider this: who uses the poor design feature to their advantage? The only way it could be used to advantage is to deliberately cause your opponent to slide on to you to cause a foul. I do not see this as an intended design feature of the game, and do not see how the game is better if kept in.

Some people may say 'I learned to overcome trapslide', and this is a valid point; however when deciding the rules of a competition, the rules should serve entertaining and exciting matches that over time fairly reflect the skills of the players. I see the modified behaviour as serving these aims much better.

3 - Prevent Kick Off Lobs
This is part of a much bigger debate re: The goalkeeper. The game was not meant to have any way of always being able to beat the keeper. On the other hand, the goalkeeper was supposed to let more goals in. It's hard to know what happened, because when I play the competition version I do not see the behaviour I remember designing. It could be that the problem is playing it on International level the keeper stats are pushed so high that the only way to score is effectively through holes. If you think about it, that's how everyone scores. You can't score with a normal kick with a lot of aftertouch, for instance. Do it 100 times and the keeper saves 100 times. That was not the intention. there are a lot of ways to score, but they all involve exploits (seriously) and it becomes a question of skill in executing the exploits. This is why I do not do well in competitions; Gianni pointed out that my in field play is not bad, but I can't score. Indeed, because I never learned the exploits. I always played the game at National level, which was the level I tuned everything to. As I recall, I did not need to use exploits. Of course, International gives you extra speed, but it also turns the goalkeeper into a thing that can only be beaten in specific ways.

What is supposed to happen is that when the goalkeeper saves, there is a random roll to decide if the save works or is deflected or just goes through. You *do* see this sometimes, but rarely in CV. As I remember it was weighted so that the more distant the keeper from the ball at closest approach the less the chance of saving. This was my intention (as I recall), but it is not what I see when I play CV. I am waiting for an Amiga which is being leant to me so that I can test out original copies of the game to verify what I did, but this is how I remember it and what I would do as a designer to reward good shots, but not have it that they work every time.

What to do about this? All great players mastered the exploits in order to score, and it made the expert game what it is. These exploits create an identity to the game, which is great for the experts, but it locks out lesser players, who never get rewarded for shots on goal. Bugger me if I know what to do. I only know what I intended.

My recommendation (based on my view as a designer) would be to not close any holes completely, but adjust all the probabilities so that there is no 100% way of scoring and no infallibility towards other shots. For example, if you curl the ball in from outside the box and manage to lift it so it's just under the bar, instead of always saving it or always scoring, there would be a certain probability. This was my intention. Right now, they never go in and that's just horrible.

But I fully understand that any such changes would change the character of the game and matches and might upset people who can no longer use their hard earned skills. All we can do is carrying on talking about it for now.

4 - The Keeper Running Behind the GoalLine

This is clearly a bug. It may have actually been fixed in later builds. I think it detracts from the game because it is something that can be used whenever you want and it appears that it has no defence. It also looks stupid. It's all part of the goalkeeper discussion in my opinion, but my recommendation would be to remove it in competition.

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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Torchiador » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:31 am

Thanks to share your point of view in the way you designed, the way you intended to design it . Very interesting!
About the goalkeeper behaviour. I think that the way you designed, that specific way with bugs, holes have a specific role in the success that Kick Off 2 had.
It isn't a matter of 25 years of training, the skilled players found the ways to score through the holes 24,9 years ago. It is very difficult to score a gaol. but if you learn to master the game, you can score.
And this is why I'm still playing this game. There is a specific challenge, a real challenge. there is a real rewarding if you are skilled with your joystick and you are enough smart, you learn how to score a goals in KO2.
Because there are two challenges: you Vs your opponents and after you beat him, there the final challenge in to convert the final shot in the net. Among strong skilled players there is even a further challenge, as often Goalkeeper is beaten but the opponent is able to block the shot, with a trap, with an header or a slide, denying you to turn the shot toward the net thanks to a very close positioning defence. KO2 Allows a 360° of challenge.
If it was all about randomness, I would have stopped to play kickoff2 24,5 years ago. Because if it was just a matter of how many shot on target (read how many roll of dices), It would have been something without challenge. There is no rewarding, no gratification to perform a difficult shot if it is all about a dice.
So I think that the miraculous balance between art design and holed behaviours made Kick off the masterpiece we are still playing.
The goalkeeper the way has been designed is surely one reason because after 25 years there is a load of guys that spend a lot of money to get Dublin and have fun together.
Although there are goals that a skilled players can convert in goal 95% of the times, that doesn't mean they are easy goal. but it would be like real football, I think that if Messi is alone in front of the goalkeeper with no pressure, he would score 95% of his shot on target. That doesn't mean that to score in a such way it is easy. probably many other would score 50%, many other even less.
This represents the real challenge we have playing KO2. Skilled players rarely roll the dice, just only if they have no other reasonable choices.
I'm not saying that the KO2 goalkeeper is perfect as it and I'm not saying there isn't another good way do design it, offering the same degree and concept of challenge or even better. I just say that the way it is now allows a degree of challenge that I never found in any other football games so far. The balance between art design and holed behaviour is so delicate that I would be REALLY careful to touch the code. The risk of a Butterfly effect is very high.
I agree that The Keeper Running Behind the Goal Line is something that as art designer can hurt you. But you should try to see the things from a different angle: This happening just because skilled players use psychic powers to manipulate the goalkeeper behaviour forcing him to leave the goal line :)
This can be seen as a fun joke, or you can see as it is: at a normal level of play, rarely you see the goalkeeper to leave the pitch to get a drink. you see it just if skilled players are in the house. PLayers that stressed the gameplay to much to break it enteringh in the hole. This kind of goalkeeper manipulation can be performed just only if you are able to reach the core of the opponent defence, very near to the goalmouth. many kinds of skills are required to get there and then reproduce the move that induces the GK run. Then of course if you are so skilled to induce the goalkeeper run, it isn't difficult to kick the ball toward the goal with an aftertouch shot then. To be said that I saw many players able to defend the empty goal. Lee said he saw just me. I can say that there are many other players able to perform an header block or a trapblock in front of the empty goalmouth. All the medal players are able to stop it and I can say the very most of the top 16 is able to defend the white line. I remember Klaus Le, Michael Ma, even Helmuts was able to stop it. Then of course all the bigs are able to stop it. Far away to say that the block is easy and it works always, but there is a chance and this is enough to say that in theory they could be stopped all the times.
Although it is an ugly bug, it offers a nice challenge and for those who accept the challenge (I would say the most) it is a challenge of skills, and above all, a fun challenge. I always said stupid to my goalkeeper, I never said cheater to my opponent. Although lobs aren't definitely the goals I repute fair on my book.
It is a 25 year old game, a bug like this is more than tolerable in my opinion. like the others, this is why, about KO2 I would not touch the goalkeeper behaviours. although some of them are very silly.

Then, if you ask me, I would like to play a Kick Off Reboot with a convincing GK IA with realistic positioning dives and so on, keeping in mind the concept of challenge that belongs to KO2
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:07 am

Everything Gianni said! To add to that, here are my thoughts how to defend the GK running behind the line, and why it is no different than defending other goals.

http://ko-gathering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=275448#p275448

Also, there is a point where a bug becomes a feature. Something that through serendipity makes the software unintentionally better. To many of us the bugs, design flaws and quirks in KO2 are beloved. They have been staples at all the World Cups, and without them we may not have been playing the game anymore.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby TheFoxSoft » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:23 am

In my opinion Dino have a point, a little bit of randomness (national level? Wind? Random pitch?) may increase the fun.
I often played the game with National teams and I honestly had a lot of fun because you can score a more wide range of goals and more important you must adapt your way to play in real time depending on different conditions.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:39 am

Great intel from Dino. Thanks man!

Good reads from The King and The God of Thunder as well.

And I have to say I'm very much agreeing with Ian. Seriously guys, I'd like to go back to the real ko2. No fix, no changes, just ko2. Pbd-choice (and maybe a=b), and that's it!

Bring it!!!
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:32 am

imo, national teams are a lot more fun to play than A & B, shooting (including lobs) are a bit easy mode compared to national sides, they add a lot more randomness and fun (just my opinion)

I know competitions would never go to this, but it would certainly add a new layer of entertainment for any other time, like if anyone was to make an online version! :D
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby dndn1011 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:13 pm

I'll just add: it's not just randomness. It's risk/reward, like in real football.. you have no control over how good the goalkeeper it going to be, but the better your shot, the more likely you are to score. Introducing random elements into games of skill is a very old and effective way of making games force a player to make strategic choices based on the unknown. Maybe should not talk about it though. People hear 'random' and then freak out.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:47 pm

i think it's clear there's a division on who would like to keep certain bugs and who would like to fix them, clearly a lot of passion on both sides of the fence too... I also see that there's enough on either side of the argument to say it's unfair one way or the other on one of the groups of people, so again, what about it being put into the APT(K) menu? then people who like the keeper bug can play against each other and use it, but if someone selects 'fix' on that menu, it's set to Fixed, as i think it's fair to say that the one who clicks 'fix' would be the lower seed player, wouldn't that give some balance and fairness for all?
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