Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

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thor
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Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby thor » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:24 pm

Steve - If you want to keep this thread to one response each, let me know and I'll remove this.

Freshmaker wrote:Add to that the fact that you can also score from this position even if the keeper stays on the pitch, he'll just make a 10 yard dive in some direction, this means I don't think it'll have such a massive impact on gameplay.

It is not a fact that he will now just dive away. You can still score goals, but he will now save more. There would be less situations that result in a goal than before.

Lee W wrote:Regarding controllable gameplay, I'm pretty sure at least that PDB and TrapFix altered the controllable gameplay too, with much more impact to the overall game than fixing one second of nonsense when the keeper vacates the goal.

Both PBD and NOPBD were in original versions, and you can practice with them. TrapFix clearly alters the controllable gameplay, but it has not been allowed in World Cups yet.

Lee W wrote:It does not stop the Jawol goal, it just gives the defending team a FAIR chance and that's all I want, that's why I vote for the fix cause I think the game should be fair for all players instead of keeping a bug in that will drive new players away when they see how much top players exploit it against them.

If a player is better than another player at something, the game is not made fair by removing that something. It is made more competitive. Rather, since I have spent thousands of hours on practicing this, I would find it unfair if it was changed.
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:42 pm

Tap fix most certainly WAS in the Dublin world cup
Last edited by Lee W on Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby thor » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:53 pm

Only if both players agreed to it. There's a big difference. I guess trapfix was allowed entirely in WC11.
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:01 pm

Most people didn't ask me, just used it, either way tho, it must certainly was allowed and used at a world cup. But this isn't about that, it's about a bug that is very wrongly abused, some might love scoring an exploiting goal that wasn't intended for the game, but in my opinion, that's a selfish attitude that doesn't take into account the guys who like to play fair and may never see a world cup because they don't want to play a game that a bug had wildly swung the balance into unfair. As for thousands of hours practising that goal, it won't stop anyone scoring it, just might, now n again, be saved, like it damn well should be!
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby kofoed » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:19 pm

Against.

Much other of the keepers movements are way off, he just isn't off the field. Sometimes he runs out to intercept a pass ignoring that there is an opponent in the ball's trajectory who traps it and gets a clear shot. It is about controlling the opponents keeper's movements and it takes time and practice to fine tune and "exploit". There is nothing unfair about this as it is available as an method of attack to all players.

What I am afraid of is that when you take away, or alter a method of scoring then that gives the attacker one less option and it makes it easier for the defender as he can concentrate on stopping other moves. The variety of methods of scoring is something to keep and it justifies having the kick off lobs, the other lobs and other goals like the blc's who are hard to stop.

There is an updated version of Kick Off 2 with fewer bugs called Final Whistle. Maybe I've not played it enough but in my opinion it#s less dynamic than original Kick Off 2 and most importantly less fun (which is why I didn't bother playing it.) Kick Off 2 with all Dinos different inventions combined with some of the unintended bugs has created a unique game that is still being played after 25 years.

Dino has indeed said that it's a bug that the goalkeeper walks off the pitch and that he would have scratched it if it had been detected during game testing, but I think that scratching it now is a different story, as it is on the original versions and also on the cracked ones available for 25 years. I agree with an earlier post that put it somewhat like this: You should be able to practice with your own original KO2 disk and prepare for the World Cup.

Trap Fix was not available in the Dublin WC unless both players agreed. This has been the rule for all WC's I think, except maybe the Birmingham 2011.
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:14 pm

clearly a pattern forming, the top 5% of ko2 players want it cause they know how to exploit it and have no problems morally doing so. (i say morally because there are some out there who know how to do it but won't because they don't see it as fair play)

this is why i thought it should be, and that it was, an open vote, so people who've maybe quit playing because they can't abide being humiliated by what some will call the 'c' word, but i'll just stick to an exploit. I also think it should be advertised to those players so they know about the vote and not just the regular visitors to the forum.

at very least, like i suggested originally, it would be nice to see it in the team selection options, with autoslide, pbd and trapfix... but that if one player selects yes (to the fix) then it automatically switches on.... (would be nice to see the same automation with trapfix too tbh, as some (most) people select it without asking).
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Rodolfo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:55 pm

Lee W wrote:clearly a pattern forming, the top 5% of ko2 players want it cause they know how to exploit it and have no problems morally doing so. (i say morally because there are some out there who know how to do it but won't because they don't see it as fair play)



I have to ask, honestly, because I am not sure I understand the full meaning of this sentence: are you saying that the best players, as a result of their lack of morals, want to keep this (so called) bug in the game, in order to extend their dominance?
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:20 pm

in a manner of speaking. but i wouldn't put it like that, i wouldn't say they have a lack of morals, i don't know most personally so i'd never say that, i would just say, and did say, that morally, they have no problem scoring a goal that is a result of a bug. My main meaning is that it is unfair to drive people away from kick off because they ruthlessly exploit this bug vs much lesser players than themselves. it's not just their game, it's ours too.

and can i please say, once again, NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT BANNING A GOAL! ... we're asking for a fair chance (slim at best tbh) that the keeper can save it instead of being off the pitch, the jawoll goal will still be scored en mass, but at least we (the underdogs) can say ok, fair play.

p.s. i'd rather keep this civil and not have my words twisted to imply i'm insulting peoples morals in general, if that was indeed the intention
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Rodolfo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:34 pm

In real competition we must face many kinds of players, and we all enjoy some and loath some other ways of playing. But that is precisely what real competition is about, to test yourself against the good, the bad, and the ugly.

You can invite home for some nice matches the ones you like better, and play your preferred way, but I do not think is a good idea in real competition to alter the original gameplay (which is equally fair or unfair to all) because of any moral or aesthetic crusade.
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:56 pm

original gameplay has already been changed though Rodolfo, many bugs have been fixed and the trapfix choice has been added and autoslides removed, they are HUGE changes compared to fixing the keeper... as Jorn put it, going shopping for what bugs you like and don't like is wrong, all bugs should be fixed or left alone, shouldn't have half measures because some folk like abusing one of the bugs
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby dndn1011 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:16 pm

I am glad there's a debate and Steve told me about it, so nervously I put in my thoughts..

It is an exploit. It may have been closed in updates to the game. I certainly is not there by design. However, it has become part of the rule set. This is problematic.

So to help understand this better and look for a solution, some questions:

How hard is it to score this way in practice?

Is there a defence against it?
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Rodolfo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:17 pm

I can agree with most of that last post, except for the verb "abuse". I do not see any abusing in any behaviour, aspect or feature of the game, as long as is equally accesible (or even equally random) for both players that only use their joysticks and the keyboard usual keys.
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:20 pm

dndn1011 wrote:I am glad there's a debate and Steve told me about it, so nervously I put in my thoughts..

It is an exploit. It may have been closed in updates to the game. I certainly is not there by design. However, it has become part of the rule set. This is problematic.

So to help understand this better and look for a solution, some questions:

How hard is it to score this way in practice?

Is there a defence against it?


top players can score it with a 99.9% success rate

i've seen it defended twice, by the same player, Gianni, once in the Dublin world cup and once from a video of 2010 world cup, so generally speaking, there is no defence once the player has 'activated' the bug, which isn't random, it's almost certain the keeper will trot off the pitch.
Last edited by Lee W on Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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