12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

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Torchiador
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12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Torchiador » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:46 pm

Hello there. It is time to open this thread.
As the subject suggests, we are going to discuss about the APT options that will be voted and used as default setting for Milan 2012.
This thread will be looked (thanks moderators) on 10th September until 17 September and in that week it will be possible to vote, so, starting from this moment we have 168 days for debates.
Everyone is invited to this debate, but only players who are registered for the world cup 2012 will be eligible to vote, and those players will be invited to place their vote by email.
Last edited by Torchiador on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:18 pm

It's been so long since I played, I don't even know what APT is! Is this the slide choice stuff? If so, interesting to see it being discussed again after it was voted through last year...
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby SimonB » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:46 pm

To APT or NOT to APT! ... I say let everyone decide for themselves
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12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby durban » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:28 am

I agree 100% with Simon B
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby alkis21 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:09 pm

Just to be clear, "Let everyone decide for themselves" is not a decision, it's a non-decision. "Let everyone decide for themselves" already applies to every KOA rule in world cups and it's always been this way since 2001: if two players agree, they can change almost everything they fancy. "Freedom of choice" was the 2011 campaign motto and it got all the liberal votes because it sounds so flowery and democratic. However, it is not a freedom of choice at all because anyone whose opponent switches off slides would be stupid to leave them on. So "Freedom of choice" was simply a way for everyone who doesn't like slides to play ZERO games with slides on in the world cup. Plus it imposed the totally unnecessary APT menu before every match on all of us. There is no "Let everyone decide for themselves". If you don't like slides, you're practically deciding for your opponent too. "Let everyone decide for themselves" is another vote against slides. I want to make this crystal clear now because when I attempted to do so last year I got attacked for stating the obvious.

I used to vote for the removal of autoslides and the stay of unintended slides for reasons I explained many times in the past. The former because I don't like random tackles, the latter because it nullifies the advantage I gained after years of practice of knowing when to press and when to not press the fire button. But I didn't really care either way. After Birmingham 2011, I can safely say that I now care because I was disappointed at seeing the privilege of the option abused. Most opponents of mine kept the button down for the entire time they were defending, and simply tried to position their players hoping for a trap. This is not the Kick Off 2 I grew up with and love. Steve might as well deactivate the fire button in defense and turn the 10 defending players into moving flytraps. So for that reason, I am now totally against the removal of unintended slides.

Having said that, I will of course accept the majority's decision. However! I want a PROPER vote. A proper vote means:

1) Do you want autoslides? YES/NO/DON'T CARE
2) Do you want unintended slides? YES/NO/DON'T CARE

A proper vote DOES NOT MEAN:

1) Do you want autoslides? YES/NO
2) Do you want unintended slides? YES/NO
3) Do you think that every human being should be free to choose what they love and cherish regardless of age, race and sexual preference? YES, AND I ALSO LOVE KITTENS AND PUPPIES / NO, I AM SCUM AND A CHILD MOLESTER

I will speak my mind very strongly against the latter "vote". Once again, "Freedom of choice" is another vote against slides.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby alkis21 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:21 pm

Let me put it another way for those who won't bother reading my long post: Mark and Simon, if you want freedom of choice, you're in luck, the vote doesn't influence you. If two players agree, they can play however they want. But if they disagree, the difference is this:

1) If the KOA voted for/against autoslides and unintended slides, they will play according to how the majority ruled.
2) If the KOA voted for "freedom of choice", they will play the way the non-slider wants.

So "freedom of choice" gives no freedom and no choice. I hope it makes more sense now.
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12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby durban » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:31 am

Alkis can we talk offline about this mate. Some other people have mentioned that the unintent slides give the opponent an advantage and i am now realising what they are saying after reading your post and would like to find out more

Me and Simon i believe just want to give everyone a good chance of a fair game and seeing pens etc given away by autoslides spoils that a little....however like i said above i never really understood the difference but appreciate how unintended slides could change the way the game is played and thus make it 'overly' changed

Thus if we can have a chat i feel i can make a more informed decision :)

Love u x
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12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby durban » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:33 am

Plus is easier to post a quick 5 words when driving thru the Drakensberg with no 3g signal ;)
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:11 am

alkis21 wrote:"Let everyone decide for themselves" is another vote against slides. I want to make this crystal clear now because when I attempted to do so last year I got attacked for stating the obvious.
You weren't alone. Like you, I've said it before too. I couldn't get too involved with the world cup discussions last year because I couldn't attend either way due to having a 2 week old baby. But for sure, if you're opponent chooses no slides, then you have zero choice but to go the same way. If freedom of choice is implemented in any way, it should be you choosing your opponents slide settings :twisted:.

alkis21 wrote:This is not the Kick Off 2 I grew up with and love. Steve might as well deactivate the fire button in defense and turn the 10 defending players into moving flytraps. So for that reason, I am now totally against the removal of unintended slides.
I wish more people would see this. No doubt the old arguments about PBD choice and A=B having changed the game already will appear again but it's a completely retarded argument. They are completely different circumstances. PBD choice was vital as people grew up playing in different ways and while I personally think PBD is KO for dummies, there's now way you can sensibly argue against PBD choice. A=B has so many obvious tournament benefits that it doesn't bear even contemplating in this argument.

However, the biggest difference in the two previously mentioned features is that they don't fundamentally change the game engine. Making players equal on both teams is not an engine change. PBD choice is not changing the game engine for either person that grew up playing that way.

Auto slides changes the game engine as it removes the aggression stat. That should be the end of the argument really.

Unintended slides changes the engine in all the ways Alkis described. It makes the game so much easier to play and removes big strategies from defending.


alkis21 wrote:Having said that, I will of course accept the majority's decision.
I respect you for that Alkis. Personally I could't make that much of a leap into playing the new version.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby SimonB » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:48 am

I thought you'd retired ;)
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:54 am

SimonB wrote:I thought you'd retired ;)

:lol:
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Freshmaker » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:26 pm

Thank you Alkis. If not my words, preciesly, you defo wrote my thoughts. And having experienced the ATP in full motion in B'ham, I'm tending to move towards Bounty Mark; I don't wanna play with the Trapfix enabled, ever again. I can live with Autoslides removed, but basicly I'm indifferent there. The Trapfix is the worst trix I've ever seen in my 8 years in the KOA.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby alkis21 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:21 pm

I was skeptical regarding the unintended slides from the beginning, but people asked me (sometimes politely, sometimes less so) to keep an open mind. So I did, and we started switching them off in Athens tournaments. But I didn't see much difference there because people kept forgetting about it (Greeks are not very smart, which is partly why they broke their country). In Birmingham, it was a disappointment. The whole thing started off as a bug removal for people who wanted to stop seeing their players slide 3-4 times per game while attempting to trap the ball, and I honestly think that this is what people still want; I'm not implying there's a hidden agenda or anything. However, it mutated into something that completely changed the way people defend.

I will be disappointed to hear that more people follow Mark (B)'s example and refuse to play any more with these settings, and I'm sure it goes both ways, I remember hearing the opposite example from guys who hate slides. But I can't say I don't sympathize with them, everyone has a line that doesn't want to see crossed, I know I'd never want to play any more if wind was voted for. Everyone seems to have a go at Mark (B) for not playing any more but it seems that few of them remember that he was one of the most active players of the KOA before the whole slide issue began. Nevertheless, a vote is the fair way to go even if it means losing some people of one party or the other.

Mark (W), I'm flying to France tomorrow and I'll be gone for a week, I'll be glad to have a chat with you about the issue if you still want to. However, this topic is titled 'Debate' so I'm sure we can discuss all opinions in this thread.
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