My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

[Freshmaker]

Jesus christ,

Just noted the timestamp for your post Jam, and it got me ThinKing maybe JamKing just came home from DrinKing?

[gdh82]

FFS JORN! I'm sure as Alex says you're a good bloke. I get you man but are you hearing me????

This is getting t-e-d-i-o-u-s but for the last time.... I accept and respect your slide preferences, as I do everyone's. I am NOT trying to force anyone to play with or without slides. Myself and others, not all of us with the same preferences, are merely suggesting a WC vote on the subject, that's all.

If anything this thread could be renamed 'Jorn's Mistaken Thoughts About The Slide Debate", given the misunderstandings going on ....

YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG to say I have been conducting a slidefree campaign for the past two years. You vaguely say it 'seems like it's going on' - where is your evidence for this???? AFAIK the subject was last discussed back in 2008. If you bother to read those threads I started you'll find they are actually more than just 'my thoughts' on the subject. They're an attempt to debate all sides of the argument, unlike your thread.

YOU ARE ALSO COMPLETELY WRONG to say I am forcing people to play a certain way. READ MY LIPS: I AM NOT! If you want to be taken seriously, either back up these claims or withdraw them.

The disappointing thing is you are quick to make these accusations but slow to retract them, even when I point out you are WRONG. I'm not sure what kind of forum example this sets, especially as a moderator?

The day after we came back from a fantastic time at the Germany Wc, you make wise-crack posts belittling the slide preference of others. YOU GOT THE MOOD OF THE KOA COMPLETELY WRONG. Bad form and bad timing, requiring the threads to be locked. Moderators moderating moderators ffs!!!!

Now you're banging on again about a piece over THREE YEARS OLD FFS from The Athens WC edition of Aftertouch??? I've just looked it up and it's just one paragraph on a page, which actually encourages the reader to use their own preferences!!! STEP BACK A SECOND, JORN - are you losing perspective? I know we're all into this classic retrogame but you seem to be seriously living in the past here?

The KOA has moved on since then. The facts are that many of us play with slide free preferences. Other's don't. What YOU consider to be fair or unfair does not change those facts. Like I've said before the my-slide-preferences-are-better-than-you-slide-preferences argument is so 2008 and redundant now. People play the way they like to play. Hosts and organisers take that into account.

Don't be surprised if I don't post again to this thread for a little while. Thankfully my limited KO2 time is going to be taken up more wisely organising a tournament, hopefully next week. After all this bullsh*t, I am looking forward to it big time! Meeting up and playing KO2 is so much more fun that discussing it.

[Steve1977]

Joe Bloggs who has his 1990 Disk is gonna be seriously miffed when after taking beatings all afternoon as Team B, he's going to play as Team A and discovered fairly quickly tha he has no advantage whatsoever. Then he's gonna wonder whats going on when he see's people toggling something called PBD. Mr. Bloggs is going to be very distrungtled that anyone who had a pirated version of the game has a clear advantage!

Playing Devils Advocate (and no, im not putting movie titles in this post!) with the above post of couse but it's clear that as soon as one element was amended and the Competition Version was created - a wonderful creation that puts the power back into the hands of the tournament organise and the KOA as a whole - the original Kick Off was lost forever...and even this is subjective because the 'original Kick Off' for someone who had the original copy is different to the one that played on copied versions.
Im fully aware that removing Auto Slides wasnt in any original version of the game but neither was A=B, nor indeed was not being able to change the original line ups, having extra tactics, the ability to toggle PBD.
This is a clear argument where you cant have your cake and eat it.

A=B is wonderful of course and so is selectable PBD, but in World Cup's time is not an issue, you play each other home and away so if people choose A=B and then have the audacity to slate people who prefer another opinion is wrong. Not wrong for either side to have an opinion or a preferrance, but wrong to berate them and not only that...state that they'r the cause of nearly half the KOA preferring this. When people use large chunks of their time to organise tournaments, get new players, they deserve a little more respect.

[Jam King]

no freshie, i was totally sober if i had had a few beers then the post would have been deleted trust me.

[Freshmaker]

no freshie, i was totally sober if i had had a few beers then the post would have been deleted trust me.

Just the timestamp that got me hooked on the rhyme.

[Jam King]

ok fair enough i posted early in the morning, didnt realise that made a difference to the content of the post. well if thats what u wanna point out thats fair enough, but what do u feel about what i actually said in the post or are we gonna gloss over that???

[Steve Camber]

I'd like to point out that everyone who has posted in this thread is a totally awesome dude and certified KOA hero.

Except that troublemaking Camber fella.

[Freshmaker]

YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG to say I have been conducting a slidefree campaign for the past two years. You vaguely say it 'seems like it's going on' - where is your evidence for this???? AFAIK the subject was last discussed back in 2008. If you bother to read those threads I started you'll find they are actually more than just 'my thoughts' on the subject. They're an attempt to debate all sides of the argument, unlike your thread.

Sorry for me being unclear here, "you" in english can point to several, not just the one person. Guessed you (this points to only you Garry, not several people) would understand. But maybe you feel hit? I dunno. The slide-debate has been going on, in various strength throughout the last years. I still remember signatures being added, advocating "being slidefree" etc. If you'd bother to check, I opened this thread because I wasn't going to the WC, but I'm still allowed to have my say on stuff that's going on.
And well, yeah, you're right, "my" thread wasn't originally thought to be an attempt to debate all sides, it was my thoughts on the debate. And considering the debate going on in the Tournaments Section at the same time, it's not 2 years late. Obviously not.

YOU ARE ALSO COMPLETELY WRONG to say I am forcing people to play a certain way. If you want to be taken seriously, either back up these claims or withdraw them.

"We didn't win the vote this year, so how soon can we get the vote started for the next WC?"
If you want, through a 51 % win in an election, to make others play with a setting NOT a part of the original versions, then sorry, I think you're trying to force people. Can't withdraw just because you're disagreeing with me. From my point of view a 2/3 win should be needed, to make such a change.

The day after we came back from a fantastic time at the Germany Wc, you make wise-crack posts belittling the slide preference of others. YOU GOT THE MOOD OF THE KOA COMPLETELY WRONG. Bad form and bad timing, requiring the threads to be locked. Moderators moderating moderators ffs!!!!

1 - I didn't crack a joke. BB did, and that joke was even based on a comment on this very topic from a 2 time World Champion. The joke did make me laugh though.

2 - Not the first time a mod has closed a thread after another mods post. I asked the mod in question why he closed, he gave me the reason why, and I stayed out of it untill he opened it again. Unlike what's happened several times on these very forums, where mod's have misused their "powers" to re-open threads just to get the final word.

3 - Maybe another moderator should consider calming someone down here. I'm a part of this "debate", so I can't moderate anyone but myself in it.

Now you're banging on again about a piece over THREE YEARS OLD FFS from The Athens WC edition of Aftertouch??? I've just looked it up and it's just one paragraph on a page, which actually encourages the reader to use their own preferences!!!

Don't have that AT anymore, tried to find it, but couldn't. Glad you can correct me there. However, in my defence here I have to say that that paragraph felt like a true attempt on some bonafide lobbying from you, trying to win other players over to "your" side.

Besides, please, work on your maths. 2008-2010 is 2 (TWO) years, not 3. So it's a bit over 2 years old. Let's meet halfway and say it's 2 1/2 years.

STEP BACK A SECOND, JORN - are you losing perspective? I know we're all into this classic retrogame but you seem to be seriously living in the past here?

Well... At least I'm not the one yelling... Check who's perspective-door you're barking at. If a discussion on a forum can get you this heated, you seriously need someone to talk to.

The facts are that many of us play with slide free preferences. Other's don't. What YOU consider to be fair or unfair does not change those facts.

So...? I'm not allowed to have a say? Then maybe you SHOULD take some time off Gary, 'cause no matter how big letters you can type in, I'm still gonna say my piece, and you - for one - can NEVER deny me that right.

[Freshmaker]

but what do u feel about what i actually said in the post or are we gonna gloss over that???

I find you standing by your mates, and that's no bother to me, besides that it's a good thing to do. I do as well.

As for the original debate I don't think you're giving any new light.

[Steve1977]

If you'd bother to check, I opened this thread because I wasn't going to the WC, but I'm still allowed to have my say on stuff that's going on.

C''mon mate, you'r a sensible fella although I have a feeling you possibly enjoy these heated exchanges? But Days before/after a World Cup? Even a fellow mod had to close it. 'Laughing' at calling people dummies too. dear oh dear.

"We didn't win the vote this year, so how soon can we get the vote started for the next WC?"

This is clearly taking the piss. The intention was nothing of the sort. You know, Iv been doing my best to covince Gaz we should have the World Cup in England (got the Hotel sorted, Restaurants, trophies etc. all sussed) - even against my better judgement - but now I want nothing to do with it because some people just dont want to listen and I dont want to use any energy with this. Gaz doesent give a shit about the outcome of the vote because he travelled to Germany regardless. Members have stated there should be a vote, regardless of the outcome. Even if there isnt a vote we'r not going to suddenly say 'well in that case we'r not coming' as thats not joining in with the spirit thats an outright demand.

So you are saying that we shouldnt have a vote? Why not? Anyone who is still playing the 1990 version is going to be royally upset when he realises there's A=B and a PBD toggle. As well as the banning of line up changes, extra tactics, normal pitch etc. We play the Competition Version and thus it changes depending on the will of the people. Mark has confirmed he no longer desires to play the game with Auto's out (nor with them in I hasten to add under the assumption we wouldnt be happy). Thats fine! Go organise the UK Champs, World Cup, local tournaments even with Slides in! if the game means that much to you. Readdress the balance etc.
We'd be happy to support you every step of the way - not that you need any help. You organised a wonderful 2006 UK Champs. Since then we prefer different settings but we never wanted to isolate you or anyone else which is why we offered regular tournaments with slides in one week, out the next, lets acknowledge everyone is different....and then we even just said, okay, come to one with slides in. But to infer we'r the big bad wolves keeping you from playing the game is...strange.

I really think attending a tournament would be good for you which is why I'd like to host one in the New Year with Slides in and KOBRA.tv enabled. Last week of Jan? I have the week off then so it'd be ideal. Can even have a penalty shoot out comp and really make your trip worth the effort. Bring Janette as Donna would love to catch up too. That way you keep yourself happy and the missus!

Some of the highest echelons of KOA members prefer the game with Slides removed. THIS DOESENT MEAN IT'S SUPERIOUR - btw this isnt me shouting, just pointing it out due to miscommunicatioins Houston, its merley people expressing an opinion. Although I will say that arguments like this are what drove James Beard away - a guy that was hosting tournaments monthly. Big shame and mustnt happen again.

and that joke was even based on a comment on this very topic from a 2 time World Champion. The joke did make me laugh though.

So because it was from the 2 time World Champion that means its accepted? Okay then, lets play this game...Steve Camber and Robert Swift prefer the game with Slides out. You see? Irrelevant isnt it? There's me saying no-ones inconsequential even if one member refuses to come to tournaments and now you'r saying that because someones higher up the food chain it wasnt wrong to make that statement. btw, I dont think it was meant to be a joke from Gianni but it was lapped up by BountyBob and yourself who fell over yourselves to quote it. "see??? the 2 times world champ said it so if must be true!!111"
All this is doing is creating a division between others and something Im shocked is occuring.

Maybe another moderator should consider calming someone down here. I'm a part of this "debate", so I can't moderate anyone but myself in it.

This isnt a debate, it's Gaz defending himself against false accusations. As mods you have a duty to keep the forum peace not accuse people of saying things they havent.

However, in my defence here I have to say that that paragraph felt like a true attempt on some bonafide lobbying from you, trying to win other players over to "your" side.

Having accepted Gaz's submission to that magazine and having us both taken great time to create it I'm miffed you mention this...now? Do you have Volker in that Time Machine? Lots have happened since this and regardless if it bothered you that you'v had 3 years of resentment built up, why not mentioin it to me in Athens? I can only assume it wasnt important enough to do so...in which case, why the about turn now?
As Gaz said it talked about all aspects of the CV so I think you'r now being silly with all this.

Well... At least I'm not the one yelling... Check who's perspective-door you're barking at. If a discussion on a forum can get you this heated, you seriously need someone to talk to.

If we'r going to go back through the echelons of the KOA then howabout I remind you of how you spoke to myself and Gaz like a piece of sh*t on this very for forum when you travelled to England. Sid and BountyBob hadnt had the chance to respond to you about having a tournament whilst you were over and you went into a tirade against...the guys that live 100 miles away? Check who's perspective-door you're barking at indeed.
Besides, Gaz has devoted lots of time to the KOA whether it be supporting new guys on the forum, creating new tournaments, getting new players and to see someone outright state he has this big masterplan to alter the game is...bizarre and pretty insulting given how he's saying he respects peoples opinions and actually does this to. Actions speak louder than words.

I find you standing by your mates, and that's no bother to me, besides that it's a good thing to do. I do as well.

Well in that case could you be consistent please because you had a go at me and Si for ganging up on BountyBob before...when we were not. Just that BountyBob seems to have a persecution complex when it comes to this issue. As if we'r holding a gun to his head over what settings he uses in the privacy of his own home and when we respect his desire to stop going over old ground about his preferences, he then reigns it back in to this very subject. When in each page of this thread we'v said we respect the preferences people have.

So...? I'm not allowed to have a say? Then maybe you SHOULD take some time off Gary, 'cause no matter how big letters you can type in, I'm still gonna say my piece, and you - for one - can NEVER deny me that right.

We have repeatedly said the opposite Jorn. In this thread. Just to clarify. What Gaz objects to is not your opinions, not your perferances but your statements regarding his comments. Your accusations. Glossing over points and then your lack of credible answers.

[Freshmaker]

If you'd bother to check, I opened this thread because I wasn't going to the WC, but I'm still allowed to have my say on stuff that's going on.

C''mon mate, you'r a sensible fella although I have a feeling you possibly enjoy these heated exchanges? But Days before/after a World Cup? Even a fellow mod had to close it. 'Laughing' at calling people dummies too. dear oh dear.

So... you'r post here didn't have a certain direction?

No, I don't enjoy these heated exchanges. Trust me, I don't. You can ask anyone here who's ever met me in person if I'm a guy to make a stir because I enjoy it. I do have that little thing going though, where I say my piece.

"We didn't win the vote this year, so how soon can we get the vote started for the next WC?"

This is clearly taking the piss. The intention was nothing of the sort.

How long did it take before the discussion about next years vote came up? It's already, more or less confirmed that the slides-issue will be a part of the vote.

You know, Iv been doing my best to covince Gaz we should have the World Cup in England (got the Hotel sorted, Restaurants, trophies etc. all sussed) - even against my better judgement - but now I want nothing to do with it because some people just dont want to listen and I dont want to use any energy with this. Gaz doesent give a shit about the outcome of the vote because he travelled to Germany regardless. Members have stated there should be a vote, regardless of the outcome. Even if there isnt a vote we'r not going to suddenly say 'well in that case we'r not coming' as thats not joining in with the spirit thats an outright demand.

Good on you. MAybe you should reconsider, 'cause at the moment that would be a sure way to keep me home.

So you are saying that we shouldnt have a vote? Why not? Anyone who is still playing the 1990 version is going to be royally upset when he realises there's A=B and a PBD toggle. As well as the banning of line up changes, extra tactics, normal pitch etc. We play the Competition Version and thus it changes depending on the will of the people.

Then consider calling it the KOCV-World Cup.

Some of the highest echelons of KOA members prefer the game with Slides removed. THIS DOESENT MEAN IT'S SUPERIOUR - btw this isnt me shouting, just pointing it out due to miscommunicatioins Houston, its merley people expressing an opinion.

And who the frack has EVER denied you expressing an opinion?

and that joke was even based on a comment on this very topic from a 2 time World Champion. The joke did make me laugh though.

So because it was from the 2 time World Champion that means its accepted? Okay then, lets play this game...Steve Camber and Robert Swift prefer the game with Slides out. You see? Irrelevant isnt it? There's me saying no-ones inconsequential even if one member refuses to come to tournaments and now you'r saying that because someones higher up the food chain it wasnt wrong to make that statement. btw, I dont think it was meant to be a joke from Gianni but it was lapped up by BountyBob and yourself who fell over yourselves to quote it. "see??? the 2 times world champ said it so if must be true!!111"

Then please, re-read the post and try to understand why I'm against the slidebugfixes
Playing with or without slides makes no difference to me, as far as I'm aware of, on wether I win or not. I'm still runty at KO2, and will always be. But what I don't like happening is when aspects of the game, aspects that are trainable, are removed because some players "don't like them" or have other "preferences". As said, for local tournaments I don't mind what you use, but for the WC I think it should be as close to the original game as possible.

A=B and PBD-Choice changes from the original game yes, but it doesn't take away any "advantage" as far as I can see. No lineup-changes makes sure we're playing with an equal squad. Standard pitch makes it possible for players to train under set circumstanses. However, if the WC would be played with all the pitches, I'd be happy with that.

This isnt a debate, it's Gaz defending himself against false accusations.

False accusations... what? Have I accused Gary of raping anyone? Comitting a murder? Conspiracy to terrorism? I ecxaggerated ONE thing, and I've even said so. Calm down guys...

And yeah, about the "forcing"-issue, I've said what I mean about that. The KOA voted on the issue, it got turned down by a 6/4 margin. In my book that's good enough. That you don't accept that, and keep on going is your thang, not mine.

why not mentioin it to me in Athens? I can only assume it wasnt important enough to do so...in which case, why the about turn now?

For those who don't know. I got divorced during 2008. I lost over 12 kg's over just a couple of months due to not eating. A dirty divorce in every aspect of it. It took me down big time. Luckily I met DB, and she joined me to Athens, taking my mind of a lot of shit. Sorry if I didn't take it with you there. (Selfmoderated a lot of shit I wanted to say right now). Anyway, that's why I didn't bother saying anything there. I wanted to enjoy myself. No. I NEEDED to enjoy myself. Not something I wanna use as an argument in this, I only say it to explain why I decided not to focus on it.

Well... At least I'm not the one yelling... Check who's perspective-door you're barking at. If a discussion on a forum can get you this heated, you seriously need someone to talk to.

I'm still not the one yelling.

If we'r going to go back through the echelons of the KOA then howabout I remind you of how you spoke to myself and Gaz like a piece of sh*t on this very for forum when you travelled to England. Sid and BountyBob hadnt had the chance to respond to you about having a tournament whilst you were over and you went into a tirade against...the guys that live 100 miles away? Check who's perspective-door you're barking at indeed.

Is thisthe door you're looking at?
Or maybe this?
Tell you what. I'm so sick and tired having to explain myself to the 2 of u. There's NOTHING I've said here that should give Garry any reason for writing in big, f****ng letters, yelling all over the forums. As I've said, tone it down ffs. Look at them old threads, and see who's the one working hard to keep the peace, because others gotta pick on everything and make a big hoot of it. The pisstake in them old threads is just that, pisstake. It's even MINOR pisstake ffs. Read it up once more if you'd like. I've done it. From what I can see I'm NOT the one jumping into the trenches.

Besides, Gaz has devoted lots of time to the KOA whether it be supporting new guys on the forum, creating new tournaments, getting new players

And he's doing a great job at it. Kudos.

and to see someone outright state he has this big masterplan to alter the game is...bizarre and pretty insulting given how he's saying he respects peoples opinions and actually does this to. Actions speak louder than words.

Yeah, masterplan. That's what I've said. Spot on.

I find you standing by your mates, and that's no bother to me, besides that it's a good thing to do. I do as well.

Well in that case could you be consistent please because you had a go at me and Si for ganging up on BountyBob before...when we were not.

I asked you to tone it down due to the opening of your post, which could be read as an attack on BB's rights to post his say on the matter.

So...? I'm not allowed to have a say? Then maybe you SHOULD take some time off Gary, 'cause no matter how big letters you can type in, I'm still gonna say my piece, and you - for one - can NEVER deny me that right.

We have repeatedly said the opposite Jorn. In this thread. Just to clarify. What Gaz objects to is not your opinions, not your perferances but your statements regarding his comments. Your accusations. Glossing over points and then your lack of credible answers.

Calling it accusations is what you and Garry wanna do. I've retracted what was wrong, the rest is a matter of opinion, they're not accusations.
Can't say you impress much as the king of credible posting though... Throwing around lame incidents over 3 years old, allready made-up and cleared? Claiming they show me as a troublemaker "enjoying heated exchanges"? Oh good lord...
As I said, no, actually I hate heated exchanges. I hate the feeling of NOT being friends with people.


Whenever I get the urge to post anything anymore I'm gonna edit my initial post in this thread to clarify my stand. Whether other members care or not is of less importance. I have the right to have my say about what I think is a wrongdoing.

[Bounty Bob]

C''mon mate, you'r a sensible fella although I have a feeling you possibly enjoy these heated exchanges? But Days before/after a World Cup? Even a fellow mod had to close it. 'Laughing' at calling people dummies too. dear oh dear.

The Kick Off for dummies refers to the dumbing down of the game, (imo anyway, I can't speak for Gianni and his original quote), not to the people playing slide free as being dummies. And it's still funny.

But to infer we'r the big bad wolves keeping you from playing the game is...strange.

I've never said or implied anything of the sort, there's no bad blood from my side. If that's how you've read it, then that's just forum posts being read in a different tone to how they were written.

I really think attending a tournament would be good for you which is why I'd like to host one in the New Year with Slides in and KOBRA.tv enabled. Last week of Jan? I have the week off then so it'd be ideal. Can even have a penalty shoot out comp and really make your trip worth the effort. Bring Janette as Donna would love to catch up too. That way you keep yourself happy and the missus!

I am very unlikely to be able to play any weekend. This has been known for years and shouldn't surprise you. Weekends are the only time I get to see my son, which is way more important than playing KO2.

btw, I dont think it was meant to be a joke from Gianni but it was lapped up by BountyBob and yourself who fell over yourselves to quote it. "see??? the 2 times world champ said it so if must be true!!111"
All this is doing is creating a division between others and something Im shocked is occuring.

This whole thread is great, this is the KOA! Thread of the year.

[Tripod]

I'll butt in once more if I may, not that I haven't written this first bit before. A=B and selectable PBD meet the strict criteria I was talking about. I don't see them as a simple improvement to the game but a major improvement to tournaments. When I first joined a WC back in Groningen and the CV didn't yet exist all games had to have two legs because of the team A advantage. And the team A player got to choose whether to play with PBD or not. Which often meant having to actually change disks, reload, adjust all the settings (player kits, etc), quite a bother and quite time consuming.

So you are saying that we shouldnt have a vote? Why not? Anyone who is still playing the 1990 version is going to be royally upset when he realises there's A=B and a PBD toggle. As well as the banning of line up changes, extra tactics, normal pitch etc. We play the Competition Version and thus it changes depending on the will of the people.

My other thoughts, which concern voting, not the slide issue, are influenced by Michael Sandel's popular Havard course simply called "Justice". The university put the set of lectures online, altogether 12 hours, and if you find the time, I really recommend it, extremely interesting. To me it'd be worth starting a new thread just with this recommendation, but here it is:

http://www.justiceharvard.org/

Now, sure, maybe it'd be going a bit too far applying it to KO2. But I could make a strong argument for not even putting some things up for a vote (in real life, fundamental individual rights). In politics, I'm wary of the "will of the people", currently in Germany we have several subjects some people demand nationwide referendums on and I'm against the idea, I do not think the public is informed enough, not political enough, to make good decisions. I like following US news, for example, and polls often are pretty crazy and show me how easily influenced people are. Whether national healthcare (the "public option"), the estate tax ("death tax"), income tax rates of the very rich... where I'd expect 90+% of the people to be in favour of one side (National healthcare and higher tax rates for the rich) for a number of reasons the figures are totally different.

I'm known for being highly theoretical. Back to the matter on hand, if you demand a vote on one aspect of KO2 and on top demand a simple marority should suffice you have to accept votes and simple majorities on all other aspects as well, banning PBD (or even banning No-PBD), A=B, kit colours, turning the scanner off completely, turning aftertouch off, all pitch types, wind, etc. I'd also strongly suggest that every vote should then count equal, in previous versions of this discussion it was suggested only people with a long KOA history should be allowed to vote, I absolutely disagree, thanks to Professor Sandel.