My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

[Bounty Bob]

who is organising it anyway?! BountyBob?? come on mate! Be no air fair to pay then!!!

Obviously this was posted tongue in cheek but what about it, BB?

Stop posting those sad smileys about becoming 'inactive' and start organising!!!

I'd be more than happy to organise a world cup, except for one thing. Consider...

I organise.
There has to be a vote, or I'm a dictator.
Slides get voted out.
I don't play.
Awesome!

[Bounty Bob]

Anyway.This year a majority voted for NO removal of the "trap-slide". Now, from what I see we're discussing this like it's natural to have this vote every year. Are you guys serious? It's been voted down, so we keep on voting untill we "get it right"? I'd say we keep it under the standard rules; if both players in a match wanna remove them, remove them. If one of the players wanna keep them in, they stay in. This approach both keeps it interesting for us "conservatives" while still leaving the field open for "liberals" / "radicals" (call you whatever you want) to play the game the way they like while playing each other. This also respects the fact that there are players who's learned to control these "bugs".

Yet you now seem to suggest we shouldn't have a vote because we had one last year??? This sounds the most undemocratic suggestion I've heard yet. Are you reading other's posts ? Didn't you see how close the WC vote was? You talk of respect but your suggestion of using a previous year's vote to play with slides as a default would completely disrespect the large numbers of players who prefer a slide choice. Respect works both ways of course. Have a vote. Respect the outcome, surely. Players whose preferences concur can still play 'their way' regardless of the vote.

It would seem odd to keep voting about slides, we no longer vote for A=B or PBD choice. I wonder, if the vote had gone in favour of slide removal, would we still be discussing whether to vote for them again next year?

[Bounty Bob]

I thought we were passed this now? Removing Auto's bugs the hell out of you, others prefer to let the issue slide. Sorted.

I'm not sure if this is another interpretation issue but what exactly do you think needs toning down here?

This is the part of the post I react to. As far as this debate goes, it's obvious the issue isn't sorted. Mark's got his full right to state his views just as you and Steve have. I could put it like this:

Not having Autos removed bugs the hell out of you, others let the issue slide. Sorted. It's not respectful, neither towards Mark nor the discussion. The fact that Mark and Steve disagrees don't take away Marks right to keep his view. Just as you've been doing your "slidefree"-campaign since before the '08-WC. Your views are stated again and again and again. Should you not be allowed to keep on stating them?

As far as my proposal goes; what's wrong with it? It takes into consideration the fact that there is a major disagreement in the KOA about this issue. Some say doing it the one or the other way affects their game, but still you wanna force them to play a different way? That's neither democratic nor respectful in my eyes. That's egocentric.

Cheers Freshie.

I thought it was a bit much, especially when Steve started telling me what we were discussing, even though the discussion title is thoughts about the slide bug. It felt like he was saying, we know how you feel, now shut up. I started writing a response but then couldn't be arsed. I know how he feels but am happy to let him carry on saying it.

It doesn't help that people think I'm whining, or in some way spiting myself by not playing slide free. I'm doing neither, I just don't see the point in it, might as well play FIFA 11, which is a good football game.

[gdh82]

who is organising it anyway?! BountyBob?? come on mate! Be no air fair to pay then!!!

Obviously this was posted tongue in cheek but what about it, BB?

Stop posting those sad smileys about becoming 'inactive' and start organising!!!

I'd be more than happy to organise a world cup, except for one thing. Consider...

I organise.
There has to be a vote, or I'm a dictator.
Slides get voted out.
I don't play.
Awesome!

Sounds like a perfect WC to me!

JOKE! I can understand that, Mark. I wasn't just talking about WCs btw.

Reading those last few posts, there's massive misunderstandings going on here. I think people are posting one thing and its been taken to mean something else entirely. Another time....

[Steve1977]

Freshie? I do a post littered with song titles and you tell me to tone it down? Thought you of all people would love this!

In relation to your post. You are suggesting that because we had the vote once we never need have it again? Apply this to politics you are saying that the people of the UK have voted for the Conservative party and need ever have another vote. No thanks! hehe
I thought the KOA had votes on various things and because the KOA is virtually split down the middle with the Slide issue, it's something to vote on.

As far as this debate goes, it's obvious the issue isn't sorted.

Yet you dont see the need to vote on it ever again?

Mark's got his full right to state his views

Completely agree. Where do I say this isnt the case?

but still you wanna force them to play a different way? That's neither democratic nor respectful in my eyes. That's egocentric.

Jorn, seriously...I think you'v big time misinterpreted my post...I said we all have differing opinions so lets think of ways to have a vote. A way of determing an outcome...we wont all agree on the outcome but lets determine a way to come to that outcome thats fair.
Where is anyone forcing people to play a different way?? I could point out that you are because you no longer see a need to vote on it. I'v even offered tournaments with Slides in but Mark rejected them with the assumption others wouldnt be happy, but these same people have travelled all over Europe to play KO2 with slides in. Plus we play that many tournies anyway that one event with Slides in isnt going to hurt us.

Not having Autos removed bugs the hell out of you, others let the issue slide. Sorted. It's not respectful, neither towards Mark nor the discussion. The fact that Mark and Steve disagrees don't take away Marks right to keep his view. Just as you've been doing your "slidefree"-campaign since before the '08-WC. Your views are stated again and again and again. Should you not be allowed to keep on stating them?

Rob Swift, Steve Camber, Steve E, Simon K, Garry C, James B, Volker etc. Plus 40% of the World Cup attendee's. Others prefer the new facility too. Before this gets misinterpreted I just want to point out...EVERYONE has different opinions so we need to cater for EVERYONE who's going to the world cup. Im NOT saying, that because 40% of people prefer slides that we should have them. Im saying that no-one is inconsequential.

It would seem odd to keep voting about slides, we no longer vote for A=B or PBD choice. I wonder, if the vote had gone in favour of slide removal, would we still be discussing whether to vote for them again next year?

Thats because people are happy with these enhancements for the game. Nothing like the original game I played in 1990. I prefer how it is now though with the Competition Version.

Cheers Freshie.

I thought it was a bit much, especially when Steve started telling me what we were discussing, even though the discussion title is thoughts about the slide bug. It felt like he was saying, we know how you feel, now shut up. I started writing a response but then couldn't be arsed. I know how he feels but am happy to let him carry on saying it.

You misinterpreted my post to that of me trying to fathom out why you dislike removing Auto Slides. When in reality my post was about 'I understanding your viewpoint...I think anyone attending the World Cup should be the ones voting...and it needs to be sorted early.
So basically I know how you feel, I know you dislike people trying to change your viewpoint and so I then ignore this aspect as it pees you off and now Im accused of dismissing your opinion. Why would I harbour on about something which we'v discussed a million times and know you dislike it?
The thread did start discussing this but has now gone on to talk about ways of keeping everyone happy with the process and i was throwing in my two penneth.

[Freshmaker]

Freshie? I do a post littered with song titles and you tell me to tone it down? Thought you of all people would love this!

In relation to your post. You are suggesting that because we had the vote once we never need have it again? Apply this to politics you are saying that the people of the UK have voted for the Conservative party and need ever have another vote. No thanks! hehe
I thought the KOA had votes on various things and because the KOA is virtually split down the middle with the Slide issue, it's something to vote on.

Just a quickie; as for the song titles; sorry I didn't see them, but maybe that's a little something to show that when posting on a forum we have to make sure our posts are understood. Sorry I didn't get yours, but maybe a little lesson. At least for me, it just points it out.

Ok, let's go politics. In Norway we've had 2 national votings as to wether or not we should enter the EU. Both times the majority turned it down, Norway don't wanna be a part of the EU. Still, the debate goes on, and people are just waiting for the next round of voting. About countries who're part of the EU; how many times have you had votes on wether you wanna leave the EU or not?

The way I look at it, making it an agreement-issue should please most people. To me the game wont be that much changed if the slidebug is removed or not, I can't say I notice it much. Guess I'm too much of a runt in KO2. But I'm still thinking it wouldn't be fair to remove it, considering there are players on here stating they've learned themselves to master it.

[gdh82]

Good to read some misunderstandings being cleared up above. How about trying to sort a few more? You seem to have got me wrong on a few counts, Jorn....

I could put it like this: Not having Autos removed bugs the hell out of you, others let the issue slide.

Sorry, no comparison. Mark refuses to play without his preferences. Fair enough. I have preferences too but still play regardless.

Just as you've been doing your "slidefree"-campaign since before the '08-WC. Your views are stated again and again and again.

Have I? Where? I've barely posted at all on the subject in two years. The only time I've posted recently was my WC vote where I called for mutual respect and also to defend my preference in your thread against slide free settings. If anything you seem to be the one with the campaign - starting a one-sided thread, two years late and during a WC vote, saying how 'wrong' and 'unfair' those of us are to play slidefree.

still you wanna force them to play a different way? That's neither democratic nor respectful in my eyes. That's egocentric.

Excuse me? Save me explaining again but you'll see I'm saying nothing of the sort. Calling for a vote on the matter is democratic and respectful. No one - not me, not you - would be forcing anyone to play a certain way. Obviously it would be the majority view that would determine the default settings.

As far as my proposal goes; what's wrong with it?

Do I really need to point out that your prosposal against a vote denies EVERYONE a say on the default slide settings. This could be seen as undemocratic and disrespectful to those with a different preference to the one YOU propose. What was you saying about forcing someone to play a certain way?

Anyway, rather than focus just on the misunderstandings, why not acknowledge the areas of agreement too? We're both okay with the removal of autoslides. I too understand the fairness argument regarding the removal of the unintended slides. I accepted years ago that this was a tough one. The fairness argument is a two way street though. It could be argued, that it's unfair to arbitrarily make anyone play without their preferred settings. That's why it's the KOA way to resolve these things by the vote.

[gdh82]

I wonder, if the vote had gone in favour of slide removal, would we still be discussing whether to vote for them again next year?

Good question. Personally I see each vote as been relevant to that particular tournment (so is quite unlike the vote for long term entry into the EU). By Jorn's logic, one vote in favour of 'slidefree' would make all future WCs slidefree ? Not sure others would be happy with that.

It would seem odd to keep voting about slides, we no longer vote for A=B or PBD choice.

Interesting comparison between slides and PBD. See, they can be compared! Maybe there will come a time when we don't seek to control the slide settings of others, just as we don't with PBD? Doesn't seem likely right now but that was probably the case at the time of PBD wars (before my time).

Mark, for the record, no one is saying you're whining here. It is absolutely your right to exclude yourself from tourneys where you cannot play with your preferences. I accepted this a long time ago, and although you didn't comment, I posted above my belief that WC organisers should take this into account when running a vote.

[hogstrom]

Just have the vote early and have these slides separated. ...And only allow nordic players to vote about it!

[Freshmaker]

Just as you've been doing your "slidefree"-campaign since before the '08-WC. Your views are stated again and again and again.

Have I? Where? I've barely posted at all on the subject in two years. The only time I've posted recently was my WC vote where I called for mutual respect and also to defend my preference in your thread against slide free settings. If anything you seem to be the one with the campaign - starting a one-sided thread, two years late and during a WC vote, saying how 'wrong' and 'unfair' those of us are to play slidefree.

A bit exaggerated maybe, but it feels like it considering this discussion's been going on (no, not this thread, but the trapslide-discussion) more or less for a good couple of years.
Having said that reading the Aftertouch-edition prior to the Athens WC was bugging me with all the "slidefree"-"lobbying" (thought I'd use that word...)


As I've said several times; I find it wrong and unfair trying to take away better players advantage, an advantage they've gained through TRAINING, through a vote. I can't manage to see it as a "preference". Sorry. For local tournaments I don't give a hoot how people play, but when it comes to the WC I always have and always will defend the original game. If we'd end up with a vote between oracle and 1.4 on one side and the competition version with pbd-choice and a=b I'd vote for oracle/1.4 every time. As John's said a few times; you should be able to train up for the WC with your original disk.

still you wanna force them to play a different way? That's neither democratic nor respectful in my eyes. That's egocentric.

Excuse me? Save me explaining again but you'll see I'm saying nothing of the sort. Calling for a vote on the matter is democratic and respectful. No one - not me, not you - would be forcing anyone to play a certain way. Obviously it would be the majority view that would determine the default settings.

Nice post, indeed.
However, it would be an agreement between the two players. But as said over, I always go for the original setting.

As far as my proposal goes; what's wrong with it?

Do I really need to point out that your prosposal against a vote denies EVERYONE a say on the default slide settings. This could be seen as undemocratic and disrespectful to those with a different preference to the one YOU propose. What was you saying about forcing someone to play a certain way?

As said over, I find original settings fair, as you should be able to train up for the WC with your original disk.

Anyway, rather than focus just on the misunderstandings, why not acknowledge the areas of agreement too? We're both okay with the removal of autoslides. I too understand the fairness argument regarding the removal of the unintended slides. I accepted years ago that this was a tough one. The fairness argument is a two way street though. It could be argued, that it's unfair to arbitrarily make anyone play without their preferred settings. That's why it's the KOA way to resolve these things by the vote.

As said earlier, I think the most fair and proper thing to do would be to either leave the game as it is, or remove ALL bugs. And considering it's not even concluded properly that the trapslide actually IS a bug I find it quite hilarious that we're even discussing it.

[Jam King]

Jesus christ, is anyone else bored with this yet, reading steve and garry posts and admittedly they are two of my closest friends but even if they werent i would struggle to find comments that freshie and bb continually get so sensitive about, maybe u should try reading the posts a little more carefully instead of trying to pick holes in things. its depressing reading boys. Ste and Gaz are prob two of the least offensive lads i know and it pisses me off reading that freshie tells ste to tone it down then starts banging on about how bb has as much right to an opinion so surely steve has a right to his opinion as well. Also ste suggested whether serious or not that bb could organise the world cup and then he said he could end up organising it, having the vote go against him and not wanting to play, im sorry bb but what exactly are we to do, maybe u should just sit out until its decided and then u know whether or not ur preffered options will be played or not as there seems to be no other option. Freshie u do continually pick holes in the posts, but gaz and ste always seem to come back with a valid argument as to how u have misread their post and took something the wrong way, just chill out a little please. to be honset im not that bothered if this post gets deleted but its my opinion written down here and isnt that what im entitled to.

[Tripod]

Agreed, Simon, that Gaz and Steve are fine blokes, though honestly I think the same can be said of Freshie and if he gets into an argument about this it has to be taken seriously, I don't believe he's arguing for arguing's sake.

If I may make one point not directly on this matter but on the process of making decisions for the World Cup: People love decisions by a simple majority - if the vote goes their way, otherwise they'll claim the system is rigged, the matter should be voted on again and so on. Now I'm only kidding about the next part, but it seems the perfect extreme example for me - if we vote on the two slides, why not include a vote about banning PBD? I think it gives players an unfair advantage (but I don't care cause I'm not a competitive person), I'm sure I can whip up a good argument against PBD. What would PBD players do if it gets banned for the next WC? My point here is that I see a problem deeper than the actual auto slides discussion, how to make any decision on such matters. For example it has been suggested that only regulars or people who attended a previous world cup should be allowed to vote because the newbies don't fully understand the problem anyway - you couldn't call that democratic surely.

I'm hesitating to make another point because it speaks out against any changes and that's not my real position, but maybe it is worth a thought: We are just talking about the one competition, the World Cup. Which by its nature is different to out other competitions, it's the largest crowd, thankfully new players still keep turning up and so on. So why not keep this competition "traditional"? Maybe a bad example - considering I'm even German: I have to admit, I find watching Rugby Union fairly boring, it's pretty static, a ruck, a scrum, a short burst, another ruck, another scrum. The forwards do all the work, the backs get all the glory. Rugby League does away with most of that and to me is more exciting. However, on an international level, the World Cup, the Six Nations, all Rugby Union, of course, it is exciting. The competion is more important than the rule set.

I guess all I wrote speaks out against changes - the challenge is to convince me and others of the use or certain changes and even more, how to reach a decision despite these high hurdles.

[Freshmaker]

Thanks Alex. Impressively thoughtful words.

In the end; my stand in this debate should be made clear, and likelwise the fact that I'll stand by that. It's not a matter of preference to me. Ffs, I don't enjoy seeing my players slide all over the place. It's just what I find to be right and not.

As for the pbd-thing. Nicely put Alex. I've been thinking about the same example. I've been trying both settings, I've been playing NoPbd for ages now, but just turned to the "dark side" a few months back. I remember, in my first wc (2004) I only played NoPbd, because I thought it looked better... Not did I understand that I'd only ever played Oracle, so none of my finishing-moves worked...