My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Talk about EVERYTHING related to Kick Off 1 + 2.

Moderator: Moderators

Freshmaker
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12024
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Humlebæk, Denmark
Contact:

My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Freshmaker » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:40 pm

During the Fako Invite tournament we talked a lot about our beloved game (Kick Off 2...). And the different slide"bug"fixes was a natural topic we discussed. From what I recall John and I agreed in our opinions about them. I'll try to explain:

If I remember this straight, we have the autoslides/-jumps. Those are quite nice to get rid off, even though thei're a part of the original game. The reason for why I like having them removed is simply that (in my opinion) they make no sense. Shit happens, and it's definatlely not because I pressed any button...

Then we have the "UnintendedSlideBug", or whatever you call it. From what I've understood this is the thing that occurs whenever two players are running shoulder to shoulder, and the one holding the ball presses button to trap, and instead of trapping, he slides. No fun, of course. But from what I understand, this is something good players have learnt to deal with. Players like John (and others) even have learnt how to use it to their advantage; they put preassure on the other player to MAKE him slide. If you relate this to real footy it's not that silly really. You put preassure on, and you force your opponent to make mistakes.
From a personal level, I'd of course like to have this removed from the game, but as I can't see that this is a bug - AND considering it's a part of the game you defo can train yourselves to master, I'd hate to see it removed. Even calling it the "UnintendedSlideBug" is FAIL imo.

So what I'm trying to say here is this:

- Feel free to remove Autoslides/-jumps, as they simply makes no sense - however, leaving them in is also fine by me.
- Do NOT remove the TrapSlide (which I find to be a better name for it).

Imposing removal of the TrapSlide in the WC is WRONG and UNFAIR towards those who bother to train and master the game.
-----------------------------
Jørn F.M.
Founding member of FÖKOF (and FAKO).
The Aftertouch Podcast.
Wayne's and Nick's Carreer Ender
Manager of The People's Lockout!
Il portiere è mongoloide!
User avatar
alkis21
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 15014
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby alkis21 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:03 am

This has been discussed a lot in the past, and my conclusion is the same as yours Jorn, on both counts: remove the autoslides as they are random, keep the unintended slides because you can avoid them with skill. But it has to be said that if enough people disagree then we must accept the majority's decision.
Remember, remember, the 4th and the 3rd of November
Image
Freshmaker
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12024
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Humlebæk, Denmark
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Freshmaker » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:15 am

I know this has been debated earlier, but I wasn't in able to take part in the discussion at that point. Anyway, thanks for your post Alkis. And I partly agree with you; if it's a majority decision then we must accept.

BUT, considering it's FAR from clear that this actually is a bug, should the KOA accept a 51% majority? I'm thinking that this is not bugfixing, but changing of the gameengine (however small a change it might be) and that should take a lot more then 51% majority. I'm talking at least 2/3 of the votes.

Bugfixing - ok.
Changes to the gameengine - NOT ok.
-----------------------------
Jørn F.M.
Founding member of FÖKOF (and FAKO).
The Aftertouch Podcast.
Wayne's and Nick's Carreer Ender
Manager of The People's Lockout!
Il portiere è mongoloide!
User avatar
Steve Camber
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, England
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Steve Camber » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:58 pm

Freshmaker wrote:Bugfixing - ok.
Changes to the gameengine - NOT ok.

Well I guess there's the problem as the unintended slide is a subtle game engine bug. If someone had pointed it out to Dino during testing he would have sorted it himself.
We now have the option of playing KO2 without having to deal with this annoyance and it's up to each individual to see the difference and decide on their personal preference. Majority rules, either way.
--
SteveC - Kick Off engineer - Ranked somewhere waaaay down the list
18 Dec 2003 - "One day I'm going to disassemble the 68000 code, and find out exactly what's going on in there!! "

Ask me about online KO2 :)
Freshmaker
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12024
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Humlebæk, Denmark
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Freshmaker » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:29 pm

Steve Camber wrote:If someone had pointed it out to Dino during testing he would have sorted it himself.

And this you know for a fact, because you have it from Dino himself?
-----------------------------
Jørn F.M.
Founding member of FÖKOF (and FAKO).
The Aftertouch Podcast.
Wayne's and Nick's Carreer Ender
Manager of The People's Lockout!
Il portiere è mongoloide!
User avatar
Steve Camber
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, England
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Steve Camber » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:54 pm

Freshmaker wrote:
Steve Camber wrote:If someone had pointed it out to Dino during testing he would have sorted it himself.

And this you know for a fact, because you have it from Dino himself?

You are incorrect here.
I'm just speaking from experience as a game developer who's been working with other game developers for far too long to not know how game developers develop games.
As I said, it's up to each individual to see the difference and decide on their personal preference. Majority rules, either way.
--
SteveC - Kick Off engineer - Ranked somewhere waaaay down the list
18 Dec 2003 - "One day I'm going to disassemble the 68000 code, and find out exactly what's going on in there!! "

Ask me about online KO2 :)
Freshmaker
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12024
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Humlebæk, Denmark
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Freshmaker » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:32 pm

But still you're just making an assumption? Or is there anything in the code that tells you this?

Is there no chance Dino inserted/left this feature as a way to give the game more depth?
-----------------------------
Jørn F.M.
Founding member of FÖKOF (and FAKO).
The Aftertouch Podcast.
Wayne's and Nick's Carreer Ender
Manager of The People's Lockout!
Il portiere è mongoloide!
User avatar
Steve Camber
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, England
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Steve Camber » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:51 pm

From looking at the code, it's a simple programming oversight in some complicated code which was never spotted at the time. As this same logic error results in your player sliding next to the ball when no opposing player is nearby, it would indicate that this bug was not intentional.
--
SteveC - Kick Off engineer - Ranked somewhere waaaay down the list
18 Dec 2003 - "One day I'm going to disassemble the 68000 code, and find out exactly what's going on in there!! "

Ask me about online KO2 :)
Freshmaker
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12024
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Humlebæk, Denmark
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Freshmaker » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:38 pm

Ok, so then it's a bug. So sitting down in Cambers lap, I'm ready to accept a simple majority decision.
-----------------------------
Jørn F.M.
Founding member of FÖKOF (and FAKO).
The Aftertouch Podcast.
Wayne's and Nick's Carreer Ender
Manager of The People's Lockout!
Il portiere è mongoloide!
User avatar
hogstrom
1000+ Poster!
1000+ Poster!
Posts: 1437
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:11 pm
Location: Osterund, Sweden
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby hogstrom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:08 pm

Very good post, Jorn. You know i agree with you.

Steve, about the ko2 game-engine, there must plenty of other issues that also could be potential bugs, right? For instance, I presume when the keeper hide behind the goal when attacking player taking a shot from the shortline, is also a bug? The question must be wich "bugs" is popular enough to keep in the game and wich is not...right?

I belive we can agree that the slide bug that appears when trying to lock the ball when opposition player is too close, is a difficult one. Many want to keep it in the game, many want it out. The other one (the one that James B got a player sent off because of in a wcup years ago) is indeed unpopular. As i see it, that sudden slide can happen out of nothing during a match. Most of us belive that is something of a nasty lottery. In the near future (after the Wcup) maybe we should concentrate on that one? Maybe that one can be ready for removal? Only argument against such action, at least what i can come up with, is the slipperly-slope argument. That is, on the other hand, not a bad argument :?o:
By car, Kickoff2-record traveller! Ostersund/Dusseldorf +3,750 km during +55 hours
Wcups: 2005 (29:th), 2006 (15:th), 2007 (6:th), 2008 (6:th), --, 2010 (12:th), --, --, --, 2014 (5:th), 2015 (12:th)...
User avatar
Steve Camber
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Mad! 7000+ poster!
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, England
Contact:

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Steve Camber » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Sure there are plenty of bugs! You point out a good example with the keeper running behind the goal line - surely something which didn't show up in the original testing. It would be very easy to fix this bug, but I don't think I've heard anyone suggest that it should be fixed.
Of course there are other bugs such as the untouchable passback to the keeper and being stuck in control of a floored player which could also be permanently removed but there is no demand for this so they remain optional.
We also have other features of the game engine like sub-stealing and extra players returning for the second half. I would expect fixes here would be widely welcomed just like many similar bugs I've already had the pleasure to fix for the community.
Don't worry about slippery slope, think of it more of a stairway to KO2 heaven where the majority decide when to make the next step up or down.
--
SteveC - Kick Off engineer - Ranked somewhere waaaay down the list
18 Dec 2003 - "One day I'm going to disassemble the 68000 code, and find out exactly what's going on in there!! "

Ask me about online KO2 :)
Steve1977
2000+ Poster!
2000+ Poster!
Posts: 2919
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:30 pm

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Steve1977 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:12 pm

Now you know for what you are going to vote. for the trapfix, which is a deliberate act against top players.


I dont think iv taken this quote out of context - just want to say that I strongly disagree! When hosting tournaments myself, I dont remove autoslides because it gives me an unfair advantage over anyone else - if I wanted to do that then I'd use PBD. :P
Think it's a bit of a shame that you think this though - kinda cheapens any tournament victories I'v had if the world champ thinks this. Kinda makes me want to not play anyone who uses PBD as well cause surely the same argument could apply - they'r getting an unfair advantage and possibly this is a deliberate act against shit players. Making them even shitter in the process.
Im firmly in the Steve Camber front of "everyone can use what rules they want and to have fun" but if there's going to be whisperings of wrong doing then it diminishes the fun a little.

Freshmaker wrote:
As I've said, I want either the one extreme or the other; either we nuke 'em all, or we keep 'em all. I HATE seeing my goalkeeper run behind the goal, leaving it wide open for anyone to exploit. And if someone's saying that this is a lesser foul/bug with the game than the TrapSlide then thei're talking plain and utter bollox.


Your lobbying is better than your lobs mate! When you next have a tournament then have a vote on em maybe? Unless the KOA wants to have set rules for a tournament to be accepted. Until then, if im hosting, im going to do what all the people attending want.
Last edited by Steve1977 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
___________________________________________________________________
World Cup 2010 - 8th Place
UK Champs 2011 - Runner Up
UK Champs 2010 - Winner
World Cup 2009 - 8th Place
World Cup 2008 - 19th Place
User avatar
Bounty Bob
5000+ Poster!
5000+ Poster!
Posts: 5261
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:16 pm

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:59 pm

Steve1977 wrote:I dont think iv taken this quote out of context - just want to say that I strongly disagree! When hosting tournaments myself, I dont remove autoslides because it gives me an unfair advantage over anyone else - if I wanted to do that then I'd use PBD. :P
It doesn't give you an unfair advantage over anyone. What it does is make the game easier for everyone and it's especially a benefit for the mid-average players. Those players with the basic skills and joystick abilities. It really narrows the gap between the top players that have studied every little nuance of the game. All their work at avoiding the pitfalls is now pointless and another edge they have has gone. That's not to say that it's all that separate the greats from the average but I hope you get the point.

For what it's worth, I'd put myself in that category, so I'm not picking on you Steve. But this idea of cheapening the victory is one of the big reasons that I don't play. If I beat Gianni without slides, because I can trap at will for example, would I have beaten him otherwise? Did I score more goals because I didn't fall foul of the unintended slide? It's not the only reason but it's a big one.

Bringing PBD into any discussion regarding slides is ridiculous. How can you compare something that people have been using for 20+ years to something that's only been made available in the last few? If there were slide free versions of KO2 used by thousands of people in the 90's, then it would be the same, otherwise it's completely different. If someone comes new to KO2CV it's very likely they've only used PBD or NOPBD and have no idea the other exists. Nobody will come in having played without slides.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests