KO2CV - 1.04

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Oliver St
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Oliver St » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:25 am

alkis21 wrote:It is within your rights as a co-organizer of the world cup to decide on what rules will be fixed and what will be voted on (if any). And I know that when the time comes, you will find a more polite way of declaring it to your guests.


Sorry Alkis if my statement appeared harsh to you. I did not intend to offend you in anyway. I just want to avoid an endless discussion about that.

We will find a decision within our organization comitee and we'll communicate it on time.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Robert Swift » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:24 am

alkis21 wrote:I've never met anyone who changed his PDB control mid-game on purpose


This sounds like the sort of thing that crazy guy Dagh might do.

But 1-8 tactics is a great step forward.

I haven't seen the new Autofix and Trapfix buttons but - although they sound like a great innovation - we are moving into the world of game altering now. We're on our sledge and are picking up speed on the slippery slope.

I agree with Alkis (did I just say that?!?!?) that the extra buttons could be activated through the Main Menu.

Allow selectable bug fixes? YES/NO
or....

DINO DINI GAMEPLAY?? Yes / No
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The default should perhaps be no....

Anyway, we're making progress, as it allows yet more of 'play the game I want'. Only issue is that compensating for bugs is an acknowledged game skill. There are those that want others to be inconvenienced by Dino Dini gameplay because they can handle its drawbacks better.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Kostas O » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:40 am

Robert Swift wrote:
alkis21 wrote:I've never met anyone who changed his PDB control mid-game on purpose


This sounds like the sort of thing that crazy guy Dagh might do.

I know i wish i could.

Robert Swift wrote:But 1-8 tactics is a great step forward.

I mainly use an extra tactic and it feels better to use shift than a whole set of 8 buttons. Of course either way is a small thing that one has to get used to.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Steve1977 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:45 pm

Robert Swift wrote:
alkis21 wrote:I've never met anyone who changed his PDB control mid-game on purpose


This sounds like the sort of thing that crazy guy Dagh might do.

But 1-8 tactics is a great step forward.

I haven't seen the new Autofix and Trapfix buttons but - although they sound like a great innovation - we are moving into the world of game altering now. We're on our sledge and are picking up speed on the slippery slope.

I agree with Alkis (did I just say that?!?!?) that the extra buttons could be activated through the Main Menu.

Allow selectable bug fixes? YES/NO
or....

DINO DINI GAMEPLAY?? Yes / No
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The default should perhaps be no....

Anyway, we're making progress, as it allows yet more of 'play the game I want'. Only issue is that compensating for bugs is an acknowledged game skill. There are those that want others to be inconvenienced by Dino Dini gameplay because they can handle its drawbacks better.


IMHO the slipperly slope has been replaced by solid foundations now that specific users can choose the settings they have. If they choose not to have autoslides because they don't want their players to do such then it kinda nullifies the argument for having them in. These same settings have been used at two UK Champs, two Luton tournaments and every recent Newent.

Need to have a look at the PBD debates because it seems that two versions had PBD in and PBD out? As with the other issues, if people know how to play PBD then they'r taking advantage over the opposition IMHO. If you want to use PBD, then let me have the auto trap bug fix.
Never been a problem for every tournament I'v ever played in though as people seem to prefer more control.
Great thing about the new version is that the choice is now yours.

Whilst the choice of rules is currently with the host then this new version gives every attendee their own desires whether others agree or not.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby gdh82 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:08 pm

Robert Swift wrote:I haven't seen the new Autofix and Trapfix buttons but - although they sound like a great innovation - we are moving into the world of game altering now. We're on our sledge and are picking up speed on the slippery slope.

Really? Perhaps when you see the 'new' settings, you'll see they're actually the same as those introduced in 2007. Only the way of selecting them has changed.

Robert Swift wrote:Anyway, we're making progress, as it allows yet more of 'play the game I want'. Only issue is that compensating for bugs is an acknowledged game skill. There are those that want others to be inconvenienced by Dino Dini gameplay because they can handle its drawbacks better.

Agree with this, tho. I can understand others been accustomed to playing with certain settings and learning the in and outs of those settings. I do respect that. There seems to be the assumption, however, that giving choice to individual players will automatically lead to everyone abandoning the 'default' KO2, so all that experience playing that way will be lost. Is this so? What is to stop large numbers of players preferring to play the 'old' way, as it were? I understand where there is a difference of opinion between players then maybe there needs to be a tournament standard, possibly set by the organiser.

I know its not the same thing at all but there is a comparison with PBD here, which is before my KOA time. For those who grew up with the non-pbd version of KO2, none of our yesterday playing experience prepared us for defending against PBD attacks. So, even though it isn't, from our experience point of view, PBD could just as well have been a KO2CV option. I'm not for second saying I am against PBD, I'm just pointing out a parallel argument similar to those used against the trapfix. Imho I actually like the way PBD broadens the game, making different types of goals possible.

One other thing about the trapfix - I must comment on the de-skilling point and that it's purely a concession to lazy, less-good players. Yes, there is some truth that it's easier to trap but there is a wider point here too. It allows you to trap the ball wherever you are, irrespective of who touches the ball last, and irrespective of how close your opponent is. Imho this expands the possibilities within the game and of course players of all levels can enjoy this. The 'default' trapping control imo is limited, because it only allows you to trap the ball under certain circumstances. I can still understand that some may see working/playing within these limitations as an art/skill.

I hope anyone reading this post will see from its tone where I am coming from. Throughout my recent posts I've not once said one setting is better than the other, or that those who use such and such as lesser or greater players. Even the bit of fun I had with those lyrics recently was purely about freedom of choice, and wasn't intended to offend anyone. I do not seek to re-open old forum wounds. The place seems weary enough as it is. Besides, as I use to say ages ago, at the end of day, irrespective of our own personal preferences, I'm sure we've all got much more in common with a shared affection for the great game. :)
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby alkis21 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:16 pm

We've played with autoslides and unintentional slides off in the last Greek tournaments, but after Oliver stated that these options will not be applied in the WC we kept them on last Sunday at Kostas'. Watching all those players fly at random was not pleasant; I dislike autoslides because there is nothing you can do to avoid them, and getting an easy goal because your opponent's player decided to fly out of the way gives no pleasure. On the other hand, I once again confirmed that I am somewhat better than most of my opponents in avoiding unintended slides.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Steve1977 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:03 pm

alkis21 wrote:Watching all those players fly at random was not pleasant; I dislike autoslides because there is nothing you can do to avoid them, and getting an easy goal because your opponent's player decided to fly out of the way gives no pleasure.


You make an interesting point Alkis and to be honest, things like this could deter people re-discovering the game perhaps because their memory would be telling them "Remember all the fun you had playing this" and because perceptions change over time, they'd play it and think "wtf are my players doing?"
If people prefer them in? Not a problem with 1.04 :)
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:46 pm

alkis21 wrote:We've played with autoslides and unintentional slides off in the last Greek tournaments, but after Oliver stated that these options will not be applied in the WC we kept them on last Sunday at Kostas'. Watching all those players fly at random was not pleasant; I dislike autoslides because there is nothing you can do to avoid them, and getting an easy goal because your opponent's player decided to fly out of the way gives no pleasure. On the other hand, I once again confirmed that I am somewhat better than most of my opponents in avoiding unintended slides.
This is what others have said and it just serves to prove what a big change to the game it really is. It's why I have no desire to play with the settings.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:51 pm

Steve1977 wrote:IMHO the slipperly slope has been replaced by solid foundations now that specific users can choose the settings they have. If they choose not to have autoslides because they don't want their players to do such then it kinda nullifies the argument for having them in. These same settings have been used at two UK Champs, two Luton tournaments and every recent Newent.
The choice is moot, who in their right mind would choose to play with Dino default against somebody choosing the new easier unintended slide option? You are instantly facing a tougher game, so in the spirit of fair competition and A=B it's a pointless option.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Jam King » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:00 pm

I agree with Ste, the foundations have just been strenghtened, and to be honest I wouldnt take as much pride in scoring a goal that has come about from a player randomly sliding out of the way and leaving me clean thru. In one of my earlier tourneys I Got a penalty against one of the German players that came about from an auto slide and I deliberately kicked it wide cause It was a good game against a good friendly opponent and I just thought it would be a total injustice to win with such a piece of shit goal. This new version allows every player to play it the way they want and its still not enough. Surely the biggest change from the original was to make A=B, nobody moans about that, which is fair enough cause A greater than B was always a little odd. But it just rubbishes when people say "its not kick off any more". If it was still like the old days Team B would still be shit.

I can't believe that some players take such pleasure from scoring against opponents who have been affected by auto slides. To me the bigger test is to score against and play against someone who can defend how they want, and trap the ball and create moves that they have intended and score goals that have been deliberately worked around a defence that can be controlled. surely thats more rewarding.
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:50 pm

A=B was a fantastic move for a competition version, there's a world of difference between changing team stats and changing the game engine. You could choose different teams before if you wanted, there were plenty of them, so having two the same is fair enough. There's a world of difference between A=B and slides on/off.

I can't believe that some players take such pleasure from scoring against opponents who have been affected by auto slides.
I can't think of anyone who take 'great pleasure' from such situations. Well, except maybe Alkis but he's a bastard anyway :wink:. :lol:

This new version allows every player to play it the way they want
That's clearly not the case but never mind. :)
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby Steve1977 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:50 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:A=B was a fantastic move for a competition version, there's a world of difference between changing team stats and changing the game engine.


But it was still changing the game engine, as is PBD. You ask why would I want to play with autoslides while the other person has deactivated them...well why the flying fudge would I play with no PBD when my opponent has activated this, giving him far more control in the process?
Cause regardless of the little niggles it's still the same game and every attendee in the last few years hasnt cared about the rules. We'v offered to talk about it and come to a compromise but you'v ruled yourself out of tournaments due to wanting to spend time with your lad - which is totally understandable.

When hosting, why would I use rules that please the guy not attending when everyone actually there prefers them off? :?o:

When KORA start hosting again no doubt they'l have autoslides...im not suddenly going to say "this is why i dont attend tournaments". I love the game too much and I love the banter... so I'll just host some tournaments myself. (Actually I'd attend if welcome as I believe the host should choose the rules he wants - hence why I travelled 100miles to play an A>B tournament at Waynies :eeko:
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Re: KO2CV - 1.04

Postby hogstrom » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:54 pm

Steve1977 wrote:Need to have a look at the PBD debates because it seems that two versions had PBD in and PBD out? As with the other issues, if people know how to play PBD then they'r taking advantage over the opposition IMHO. If you want to use PBD, then let me have the auto trap bug fix.


First, you know i often agree with you, Steve. Sometimes i disagree, this is such case. PBD have been in the game (Oracle) since it was relesed. I would guess that about 50% of the KOA have used this (PBD) from the 90´s (I have not) you cant seriously suggest it is time to have a discussion about PBD or not PBD?
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