Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:46 am

Besides, Trapfix influences more than just that part your showing. Still the shoulder-tackle is involved.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:15 am

It's outside the box, it's unrelated to pbd.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Torchiador » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:27 am

Lee W wrote:just change the graphic? seriously? i thought it was just a joke... what would be the point in that other than to make an unfair goal look fair???


Lee, what is fair or unfair is just your own personal point of view.
In my point of view, the lob is the most unfair, unworthy, despicable way to spoil the behaviour of the Kick Off GK.

Do you see the point?
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Torchiador » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:41 am

Second Point: the presence of the goalkeeper is just a perception that the graphic gives to you.
You have the sensation that the goalkeeper can save a goal just because you see him in front of the line in front of the incoming shot.
but this is just a perception, in fact there are many goals in which the ball pass through the goalkeeper, without any deflection, precisely like there is no a goalkeeper. And this isn't due to a random factor. this is a ripetibile task, it is allowed by the gameplay and the goalkeeper behaviour.
Take for example the stop 'n' goal. You see the GK in front of the ball, but there is not GK if you kick the ball with the right timing. take the ground level upwards aftertouch shot. the same like above. if you have the right timing in to kick the ball in the precise moment the ball is on the ground giving upward aftertouch, there is no goalkeeper. the ball passes through him like he is a simple ghost. In my imagination, like in real soccer I see the ball passing through the legs of the GK so i feel a sense of reality in that kind of goals, although, for a cosmetic point of view, it would be really nice to see a chip shot over the GK when I perform a stop and goal. Messi rulez.
You see the goalkeeper but there is no goalkeeper if you know how to transform him into a ghost. It is at least needed a lot of skills to reach the small penalty box and perform such shots, skills that aren't required to perform a lob of course, just get a goal kick and then lob.
So it is pointless to argue there is no goalkeeper because he has gone away on the screen boards. there is no goalkeeper though. this is why I would accept a sort of cosmetic fix.
I agree, to see a goalkeeper to run outside the pitch it is not realistic. but is it realistic to see a 30 meters shot entering in the goalmouth with the goalkeeper perfectly placed on the white line on the precise trajectory of the ball? Are you kidding me? what is? Soccer for dwarves??? Soccer for born blinds persons?
On the other side, in some running action in the penalty box(Both PBD and NOPBD) you see the goalkeeper running like a fool around the penalty box leaving the goal mouth completely free. So? what we have to do here? is it fair to spoil the goalkeeper also in such way? from a way to build my attacking pattern, there is 0 difference. it is a way to spoil the goalkeeper precisely like the run outside the pitch. the way to perform this kind of spoil is very similar. just a different angle of the run but it is precisely the same mechanism. so what? if we change the gameplay for the run on the screen boards, to be fair and for coherence we should fix also the run of the fool around the penalty box.
And what else?
At last: there is a bond among all the behaviors that we call bug, we call, features, we call live we want. but there is just a way to call it if you gather them all. his name is Gameplay. if you change just one of them, you change the whole gameplay. If you don't like the 25 years old gameplay, well, there are many other soccer games around.
Last edited by Torchiador on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:23 pm

Torchiador wrote:At last: there is a bond among all the behaviors that we call bug, we call, features, we call live we want. but there is just a way to call it if you gather them all. his name is Gameplay. if you change just one of them, you change the whole gameplay. If you don't like the 25 years old gameplay, well, there are many other soccer games around.


but you've picked and chose which bugs you want fixing and left the one which helps you score more into an open net... how can you use that argument when so many fixes have been made from the original... you're trying to justify a clear bug exploit that results in a goal 100% of the time, that is not comparable to lobs in any way, but, if lobs were decided to be fixed because they were 100% guaranteed i'd use some other passage of play, not try to justify my false need to use a bug to score a goal.

but like i say, the main point here is that you can't use that gameplay argument when so many fixes have been made yet this gaping hole hasn't.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Torchiador » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:25 pm

Please Jorn, I'd like you to add a 5th point: Fix lob shots, 6th point: Fix BLC shots. 7th point: Fix sidenetting/ghost goals. 8th, fix the run of the fool. thanks

My stands:

1- It is not a bug. it is a feature designed to add a degree of randomness. In Kick Off there are many aspects that add randomness, that randomness that even can turn the final result making a match so exciting, making the tournament so entertaining. In KO2 like in real soccer, the best players don't win all the games. Autoslide is part of this randomness algorithm. definitely not a bug.
Then of course they aren't welcome, above all when it is your player to fall in an unpleasant auto slide or auto header.
To be said that in the past we had a pull for that and we had always that voted to keep autoslides. this kind of vote can be read also "I want to preserve the original gameplay".

2- I think I don't need to add anything, my bile is still hurting.

3- Please any one tell me when you have seen this in real football. I want to see it, please. I want to see a Goalkeeper STANDING ON THE WHITE LINE UNDER THE CROSSBAR ON THE PRECISE BALL TRAJECTORY let to enter a 45 meters lob shot. Are you kidding me? Are you talking about Soccer for born blinds persons? Soccer for Dwarves????
An incident can happen over 10000 matches. of course. an incident over 10000 matches of 90 minutes of duration.
Do you see the point? If you cannot see the point, probably I'm playing soccer for born blinds or soccer for Dwarves and nobody has told me (yet).

4- It is clearly a bad behaviour of the goalkeeper like others in the game but I have seen more real goalkeepers inside the net trying to catch a ball that crossed the line already than a Goalkeeper Standing on the white line under the crossbar on the ball trajectory let to enter a 45 meters lob shot.
Comparing to the 3 (and 5) points, this kind of behaviour of the goalkeeper can be spoiled just only if you are able reach the core of the box: the sides of the small penalty box, that means that you need skills for it. On the other side, even a stone is able to kick a lob, you don't need anything, just to reach a goal kick ball and lob then. Wow! My most moved congratulations. You scored a lob!
you cannot remove this kind of behaviour if you don't fix lob behaviour first.

5- Like point 3, just generalizing. I want to see a Goalkeeper STANDING ON THE WHITE LINE UNDER THE CROSSBAR STANDING ON THE PRECISE BALL TRAJECTORY let to enter a 10 meters lob, 15 meters lob, 20 meters lob 25 meters lob... No way.
In real world you can score it just only for an erratic accident.
Real lob shot are another thing. the goalkeeper standing far away from the goalmouth allows this kind of solution.
This doesn't happen in KO2 as the goalkeeper stays on the white line. And what we see it is one of the less realistic behaviour of the goalkeeper. A goalkeeper that is standing on the white line, under the crossbar at the precise point of interception let to enter a ball in the net.

6- BLC. it is curious. among all the things we are used to call bug/feature/behaviour there is one that nobody mentioned before. the BLC is the only routine goal that comes from a precise BUG.
to perform a BLC it is required to chip the ball from the white "bye line". just a bit before the out of bounds, the ball have to be over the white line otherwise the BLC doesn't work or at least it is very less effective, the goalkeeper would save it. If you perform the chip from over the line, the goalkeeper will not be able to save the head shot.
Nothing new so far. A part the fact the there is the CROSSBAR!
If you chip the ball from the line in direction of the goalmouth, THE BALL MUST BOUNCE OVER THE TOP OF THE CROSSBAR ALONG HIS DESCENDING TRAJECTORY! Practically speaking we are in a paradox. The ball must to hit the top of the crossbar and we cannot perform a common BLC. this is the only thing we cannot call as behaviour (does a crossbar have a behaviour?), simply in this specific situation the Crossbar has forgotten in the gameplay. Can I say it is a bug? A bug that have a deep affection in the gameplay? Damn, I think so! Rikki won a world cup just using the BLC and Dagh was near to do so in Athens 2008. In my way of thinking this would be at the top of list. Hell, there is no crossbar in BLC!, this is a CLEAR spoiling of a bug!

7- Sidenetting and ghost goal are something that could be easily fixed by Steve

8- The run of the fool. at the same way the goalkeeper has a very bad behaviour when we induce him to run outside the pitch, at the same way and using the same mechanism just applied in a different way, we can see the goalkeeper leaving the goalmouth unguarded, completely a free pass for a 90° finishing.


Conclusion. I love KO2. like my son there are things that somehow make me angry, but I love him though.
Any single small change of the gameplay can really break an equilibrium long 25 years. Remember, there aren't any other games like Kick Off 2. it is the oldest video game in the world where people is still playing, having world cups. I would be REALLY CAREFUL in to adopt any kind of change in the gameplay.

Steve raides very good points though. and I would be in favour of all of them, but we cannot go ahead with such changes if we first don't fix the most of the silly behaviour of the goalkeeper: the Dwarf goalkeeper.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:23 pm

Gianni: Basicly you're at "Leave the game as it is, just do a=b, pbd-choice", am I right?
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Binary » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:49 pm

Torchiador wrote:3- Please any one tell me when you have seen this in real football. I want to see it, please. I want to see a Goalkeeper STANDING ON THE WHITE LINE UNDER THE CROSSBAR ON THE PRECISE BALL TRAJECTORY let to enter a 45 meters lob shot. Are you kidding me? Are you talking about Soccer for born blinds persons? Soccer for Dwarves????


Haha I recently mentioned this on a FB discussion and someone who loves KO2 even more than I do (don't remember who it was) answered "It's not supposed to be realistic!" :D
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:04 pm

my point, is that the powers that be in the KOA have chosen which bugs fixes to use... that's wrong in my opinion, leaving a bug in cause some like exploiting it to score is just plain wrong and impossible to justify when other bugs have been fixed. All or nothing or it's just not fair for all.

and for the record, keeper off the pitch was declared by Dino himself as a bug that he would have fixed had he known... lobs are not a bug, unrealistic, sure, so is the keeper running around after the ball in the box n watching the player run past him... that's ko2, that's the gameplay... keeper running off the pitch is not, it's a bug that needs to go for the sake of other players, not just the top players!
Last edited by Lee W on Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:07 pm

Discussing what bugs we should remove and what bugs we should keep in the game is ridiculous imho.

The only sane stand you can reach is either;

1 keep 'em all

2 kill 'em all.

To discuss how you move to push the keeper to perform his bug is if no interest. You either go as close to original as possible (a=b, pbd-choice), or you go all in on bug-removal. You can't be shopping your preferred bugs and still call it a fair game.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:03 pm

Torchiador wrote:I love KO2. like my son there are things that somehow make me angry, but I love him though.

Epic! This must end up on a t-shirt at some point!

Torchiador wrote:the Dwarf goalkeeper.

See, I prefer to think of him as at least 5m tall, and most of the goals go in between his legs. This explains the lobs, the ground-balls, ...

Torchiador wrote:8- The run of the fool.

KO2CV request: Add Benny Hill music when this happens.
Last edited by thor on Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Torchiador » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Thor, I was quite angry, but after I read your post I eventually started a smile! :D thanks!
I must say that the 5 meters giant really explain many things! Stupid me I didn't realise it before!
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby r.cross » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:19 pm

KO2CV wise I really like the PBD choice as I do like the A=B option. (And many other cool things Steve introduced like the 4 player mode that, unfortunately, I never get to play these days.) I like PBD because it's in the game of my childhood, I like A=B because I have bad memories being trashed by my friends using the German team while I was a fan of and therefore played with the way less powerfull Dutch one.

Now if someone told me that there's no PBD in the original KO2 release so we don't use it in tournaments I think I could live with that. Kind of a late punishment for one of my childhood 'sins' I'd suppose - I'd try to adapt. If there wasn't the A=B feature I could deal with that also, even if that meant that one legged games would often go only one direction. I can imagine that this could even lead to more depth in two legged games though. And I know that tournaments where played like that before I discovered the KOA.

However, I believe that there is a risk in changing more of the original engine - it could turn of new players and therefore it shouldn't be done. One of the really cool things in Dublin was the many new faces - just awesome. Imagine you have a handfull of new players signing up for a WC and you'll have to send them a document full of things that don't work anymore. Or work different. Not Good. Imagine Chris coming to the Voitsberg WC just to find out that his 'tricking the goalie behind the byline' goal doesn't work anymore. Funny - but not good.

I'm probably more nostalgic than most of you, but I even miss the autoslides. I used to see them as a (random) factor adding to the entertainment. And from what I've talked to people I'm quite alone with that :mrgreen: Let's be honest, not to have everything 100% under control is part of the fun, just like the randomness in shooting, crossing or lobbing.
Last edited by r.cross on Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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