Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

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thor
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:28 pm

Freshmaker wrote:Agreed, but we should still consider removing the most obvious bugs.
KO2 is arcade-football. It's fast paced, fun, silly, but some things I just find dumb. And this bug is one of them. KO-lobs are not bugs. They're silly, yes, but at least the goalie is just slippery, he's not doing impossible moves, like running through the net...


If the GK remained on the line, but conceded all the shots that he concedes when he is behind the line, would it bother you as much, or would you categorize it as silly & slippery?
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:37 pm

thor wrote:
Freshmaker wrote:Agreed, but we should still consider removing the most obvious bugs.
KO2 is arcade-football. It's fast paced, fun, silly, but some things I just find dumb. And this bug is one of them. KO-lobs are not bugs. They're silly, yes, but at least the goalie is just slippery, he's not doing impossible moves, like running through the net...


If the GK remained on the line, but conceded all the shots that he concedes when he is behind the line, would it bother you as much, or would you categorize it as silly & slippery?


wouldn't bother me in the slightest... that'd be just one of those things... like how ya can run around the keeper or just trap it past him... or lobbing him ;)

it's the fact that he's off the pitch and gives him zero chance to save it which is a huge bug and how heavily it's exploited
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve Camber » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:41 pm

Yup, I could just draw the keeper on the pitch when he was in fact, off the pitch. No change in gameplay, still going to be a goal, just doesn't look so daft.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:39 am

My thoughts:

1. Autoslide/headers
An annoyance, one bug less to worry about.

2 Trapslide.

Here's a trapslide, just to make things clear.

Image

There's no opposing player nearby. There's no need to slide. This is what the trapfix fixes.

It's a bug. Not from typing in a wrong number in the code, but from a hole in the design, just like the autoslides/headers above.

Dino spoke about this in Dublin, he said it was not meant to happen and agreed my fix was a good one. So I was very surprised to hear about the contents of the interview. I guess the context of the discussion matters here, so I'm looking forward to having a listen.
If Dino looks at that animation and says "Yeah, that's just what I wanted" then I'll be amazed.

My original implementation of the trapfix was open to abuse, players could just hold down the fire button all the time while defending with no fear of a slide. This was picked up on and the complaints were indeed justified. By the 2012 world cup (v1.09) I had patched that loophole up but by then the trenches were already dug and nobody seemed to notice which is very unfortunate.

As for the case of preparing for tournaments on 1.4e/oracle - the trapfix in it's current form is very minor compared to the difference in player stats this person will notice. Players will be less accurate, tackles will be different, stamina will be different etc

3. Prevent Kick Off Lobs
I hate these. To me they are as filthy as diving over an outstretched leg in the penalty box. That's why I don't do them in tournaments, although I imagine I'd do better if I added them to my lobbing arsenal. I'm sure others feel the same about my lobs, so I don't feel like I can complain much! I'd probably abstain on any potential vote.

4. The Keeper Running Behind the GoalLine
Looks funny. Another case of an implementation of a design which has a hole in it. The keeper is running to intercept a loose ball. He just doesn't notice that the place he's running to is the advert board off the pitch. Not wise. Most goals come from manipulating the keeper in some way so this doesn't seem so different to me.


Bonus:
Also while in Dublin, Dino spoke to me about the wish to continue development of KO2 on the Amiga, suggesting we add new things, fix problems such as those mentioned here, all agreed by a panel of forum members. Breathe new life into the game we all love in an 'official' way with the original developer involved. It's something to think about and a rare opportunity for a game of this age, although I've already pointed out there would probably be resistance.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Torchiador » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:04 am

Steve Camber wrote:Yup, I could just draw the keeper on the pitch when he was in fact, off the pitch. No change in gameplay, still going to be a goal, just doesn't look so daft.


Are you saying it would be possible to do this cosmetic fix?
The point is that the goalkeeper isn't running back the line all the times, it depends on few factors, so although you are trying to force the GK to go out of the pitch, he remains on the line instead. and when it happens I of course instead to shot, I decide very quickly to go for a different solution.
With the cosmetic fix I wouldn't know when it is the case to change solution. Hope you are getting what I'm meaning.
In relation of this, with such cosmetic solution I cannot see how deep the GK has gone away so I don't know if a further turn would allow him to come back in position (it happens often when you lose time adjusting the run path) or he is deep enough so I can turn to shot from a better and safe position/angle.
Maybe we could use a further cosmetic fix: when the GK should be behind the goal, we could use a couple of bitmap of the goalkeeper dive animation. this is just an idea. an insane idea that we could test.
Although while I'm writing I already have doubts it could work. But I'm welcome to test it.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:10 am

Steve Camber wrote:There's no opposing player nearby. There's no need to slide. This is what the trapfix fixes.

Is there a description somewhere that specifically captures what trapfix does and does not do, then? One situation that occurs often is an opposing player is running next to you and you attempt to trap, the slide occurs. You have to resist the urge to try and trap the ball or you will slide and give the ball away, often leading to easy goals. It is hard to learn to not do that since the trap is part of the stop-and-go dribbling. Are you saying that with v1.09+ trapfix, the slide will still happen in this case?

Steve Camber wrote:As for the case of preparing for tournaments on 1.4e/oracle - the trapfix in it's current form is very minor compared to the difference in player stats this person will notice. Players will be less accurate, tackles will be different, stamina will be different etc.

Are you referring to TeamA != TeamB?
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:13 am

Torchiador wrote:
Steve Camber wrote:Yup, I could just draw the keeper on the pitch when he was in fact, off the pitch. No change in gameplay, still going to be a goal, just doesn't look so daft.


The point is that the goalkeeper isn't running back the line all the times, it depends on few factors, so although you are trying to force the GK to go out of the pitch, he remains on the line instead. and when it happens I of course instead to shot, I decide very quickly to go for a different solution.


Agree.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:15 am

Good points, I was just thinking of drawing the goalie's sprite on the line, but changing the sprite to something else would give some better feedback to the attacker.
Or maybe I could draw a "x" where the goalie actually is, like buried treasure. :)
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:46 am

thor wrote:Is there a description somewhere that specifically captures what trapfix does and does not do, then? One situation that occurs often is an opposing player is running next to you and you attempt to trap, the slide occurs. You have to resist the urge to try and trap the ball or you will slide and give the ball away, often leading to easy goals. It is hard to learn to not do that since the trap is part of the stop-and-go dribbling. Are you saying that with v1.09+ trapfix, the slide will still happen in this case?


The slide shouldn't happen if you are nearest the ball as you hit the button.

This is the extra logic trapfix employs:

----------
If the game is about to make your player slide due to your fire button
{
- If you have been holding the fire button for over a second GOTO Slide: ;[You are taking the piss, you can now slide.]
- If you are nearer to the ball than any opposing player GOTO End: ;[You are nearest the ball, no slide.]
- If you have been holding the fire button for over 5 frames GOTO End: ;[You haven't just hit the button right now, no slide.]
Slide:
- Your player begins the slide
}
End:
----------

thor wrote:Are you referring to TeamA != TeamB?

Yes. Team A is now weaker than before. Team B is now stronger than before.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:31 am

just change the graphic? seriously? i thought it was just a joke... what would be the point in that other than to make an unfair goal look fair???
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:06 am

Lee W wrote:just change the graphic? seriously? i thought it was just a joke... what would be the point in that other than to make an unfair goal look fair???

Yes. Seriously?
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:07 am

Steve, as for your animation; is that pbd or NoPbd? I don't see that occurring much with NoPbd.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:45 am

I ask this because I don't see this happening much when playing NoPbd, so maybe it's a part of the ball-handling, or lack thereof, with Pbd...
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