Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

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Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:43 pm

Ok guys. Opening up the thread here. Rather than opening seperate threads for each bugfix or enhancement, let's try to keep them all in one thread.

1 - Autoslide/-headers.
- A fix for these (The Autofix) has been included in quite a few World Cups, and the Autoslide/-headers are also acknowledged as a bug. I think we can call this point "resolved".

2 - Trapslide.
- There has been a huge debacle about this during earlier debates, so let's try and keep it down this time. In my opinion there are different aspects we need to look at, before implementing a fix for the game.
First of all; is it actually a bug. As far as I've managed to sort out, it's not. Even Dino says it's not a bug. You can all look forward to the December or January episode of the Aftertouch Podcast, where Dino and I discuss this (our talk was so long I'll have to split it into two episodeds). Basicly, it's NOT a bug.
Secondly; Even though it's not a bug, is it a good thing? Well... having your players slide, when trying to trap, can really piss you off, but if you look at it as the way the writer of the game could make a shoulder-tackle a tough part of the game, it changes my view on it.
Third; You can learn how to master this, and therefore avoid having this happening to you. Is it then right of the majority of the KO2-players to take away from the top players an advantage they've gained through putting in lots of time training?
Fourth; Let's all remember that you should be able to prepare for the World Cup by using your original KO2-disc. The Trapfix is a massive game-changer. I don't think you can prepare with your v 1.4e, and not be baffled by the Trapfix.
Fift; I enjoy that my players don't slide when I try to trap while being shoulder-tackled, I see the benefit of the Trapfix, but I still wan't you to read above statements. We're playing KO2, it's the KO2 World Cup. Not the KO2CV or KO2PC World Cup.

3 - Prevent Kick Off Lobs
- Are we serious? I know they're a massive pissoff, but much of above mentioned still stay in also for this point. It's a feature of the game. It's not a goal you'll never see performed in Real Football (I've seen it done several times). My stance is that if you don't like KO-lobs, then figure out a way to stop them. It's possible. Train ffs.

4 - The Keeper Running Behind the GoalLine
- Clearly a bug. Imho it should be removed. And from earlier statements on the forums, we shouldn't remove this bug, because we don't wanna remove scoring opportunities. Well, then why are we still talking about removing the KOLobs, who's not a bug. And the Trapslide, who's not a bug. This means we're just talking about enhancing the gameplay in a direction comforting some players, while we close our eyers for the acutal bugs.
Now, just for the sake of it, I made my own little research on this issue during the Dublin WC, and quite few of the Jawhol-goals include the goalie actually running behind the goal-line. Most of the sees the goalie throwing himself the wrong way etc. So, doing a bugfix on this goal wouldn't ruin much goalscoring opportunities at all, it would just make the game seem more legit.



My stand:

1 - It's a bug. The Autfix works really nice. I'm for the use of Autofix.
2 - Not a bug. Even though it's nice to not have your players sliding when trapping, this is a part of the original game (and as said, without being a bug). I'm against the use of Trapfix.
3 - Kick Off Lobs. No bug at all. Can be seen in real football, can be preventet. Train on it. I'm against removal of KOLobs.
4 - The Keeper Running Behind the GoalLine. Clearly a bug. Removing it won't interfere much. The argument about "not wanting to remove goal-scoring opportunities" is false. I'm for the use of the KRBGL-fix.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:12 pm

Agree on all counts

1. yeah, don't think anyone wants that really, especially when you're losing players to S.Screech or your number 5 to the dirt.

2. this one seems to me to be there to make the perfect play... that's not kick off in my opinion... just maybe tweaking the trapfix might be good though, so if you're not within 'X distance' of an opposition player, they won't slide?... just a thought.

3. as Jorn said, it happens in real football, we've all seen it, if you've not, youtube it... and it's defendable, not that hard... plus the keeper can save it and it's actually not that easy to get right.

4. honestly, why is there even a discussion? it's a bug, Dino himself said so, said he'd remove it in a heartbeat. If people say they 'need' this bug to score then they need to learn to score a legit goal. I won't go so far as to call it cheating, but it's definitely exploiting a clear bug that gives the defending side zero chance, it's morally wrong, it's physically wrong and from a new players point of view, it's sickening, it's depressing and will drive people away, i know i'm on the fence atm... we expect to get whooped, but fairly... It's not like it rules out the Jawoll goal, it can still be scored with regular success, but at least it gives the keeper a fighting chance. My opinion is fix it, permanently and play fairly.

Everyone wants to enjoy kick off 2 competitions, please consider everyone's position, including those who've yet to find the KOA, not just the top tier of players.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:44 pm

Lee W wrote:4. ... It's not like it rules out the Jawoll goal, it can still be scored with regular success, but at least it gives the keeper a fighting chance. My opinion is fix it, permanently and play fairly.


Thanks for your input Lee. And I totally agree with your argument here, and would just like to add that The Keeper Running Behind The Line simply looks utterly ridiculous...
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Here are my somewhat unorganized thoughts and opinions. I of course respect everyone else's. :)

We should be able to practice with an original version of Kick Off 2. This should be the litmus test. If we have this single constitutional rule, we won't have this discussion over and over again. If we change the way a player controls the gameplay, it is not Kick Off 2 anymore. In my opinion, if we start changing the game then we are setting a precedent that does not represent progress, it represents wanting to play a different game, which I consider the beginning of the end.

We need to stop comparing Kick Off 2 to real football. If we wanted a real football game, then we should go play FIFA. By the way, in real football there are way more narrow angle goals than goals from midfield. If we're worried about the goal keeper diving behind the line, look at the height of the ball on some of the lob goals. I can't recall having seen a BLC being scored by the chipping player in real football, and I don't see 10m offside goals being scored very often, nor players running full speed into a header and then reversing direction mid-air or goal keepers setting long-jump world records records by diving 10+ meters.

Trap-Fix changes the gameplay. This is crystal clear, and perhaps best described by Gianni and Dagh here:

http://ko-gathering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=259469#p259469
http://ko-gathering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=267191#p267191

To add to that, I consider trapfix to interfer with goals. There are goals that I score that take advantage of the attacker being able to enter trap mode from the assisting pass, and if the defender has not chosen to enter trap-mode previously, they will have difficulty doing so in the PB without risking a penalty.

Enabling trap-fix makes KO2 a simpler game. If we allow it in a World Cup, then the winner will have played a different, simpler game. Should we we put an asterisk next to the winner, then? "*Played with a simplified version"

Freshmaker wrote:4 - The Keeper Running Behind the GoalLine. Clearly a bug. Removing it won't interfere much. The argument about "not wanting to remove goal-scoring opportunities" is false.


Lee W wrote:It's not like it rules out the Jawoll goal, it can still be scored with regular success,


Not true. The majority of the narrow angle goals exploit the GK behind the line. Changing this behavior would have an order of magnitude greater impact than enabling trap-fix, disabling KO lobs, etc.

Finally, a game of Kick Off 2 is won by the player who scores the most goals. There are no style points. If you don't like Kick Off lobs, then find a way to defend them (Fabio is clearly very good at this, yet I don't recall him scoring a single one over the three games we played this year). The reason I don't use them is not because I think they are a lesser goal, but because I think the routine I use has a higher probability of a goal. If you don't like the narrow angle goals, find ways to limit the situtations (try to consistently score many of these against Chris, and you'll need to find a different way to get your goals). In my opinion, one becomes a better Kick Off 2 player by learning how to maximize in all areas of the game, not by making the game simpler.
Last edited by thor on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:37 pm

isn't the keeper being off the pitch making it infinitely more simple?

and ofc most of the goals are with the keeper behind the line, cause you guys know where the sweet spot is to make him do that... i know i've scored plenty when he's been in the goal though so there's no way on earth it wouldn't be a viable goal still, but at least a fair one
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:37 pm

thor wrote: In my opinion, one becomes a better Kick Off 2 player by learning how to maximize in all areas of the game, not by making the game simpler.

Agreed.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:39 pm

Lee W wrote: i know i've scored plenty when he's been in the goal though so there's no way on earth it wouldn't be a viable goal still, but at least a fair one

Agreed. And many of the ones I recieve are like that. And stopping the goalie from running behind the goal-line wouldn't by default stop the goal. It just makes him stay on line...
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:41 pm

Freshmaker wrote:
thor wrote: In my opinion, one becomes a better Kick Off 2 player by learning how to maximize in all areas of the game, not by making the game simpler.

Agreed.


should it really be about how good you are though? Personally, I joined to have fun... not to win stuff... but I never knew how bugs could be exploited so ruthlessly... i don't find that fun tbh
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:48 pm

thor wrote:We need to stop comparing Kick Off 2 to real football.


Agreed, but we should still consider removing the most obvious bugs.
KO2 is arcade-football. It's fast paced, fun, silly, but some things I just find dumb. And this bug is one of them. KO-lobs are not bugs. They're silly, yes, but at least the goalie is just slippery, he's not doing impossible moves, like running through the net...
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:51 pm

Lee W wrote:
Freshmaker wrote:
thor wrote: In my opinion, one becomes a better Kick Off 2 player by learning how to maximize in all areas of the game, not by making the game simpler.

Agreed.


should it really be about how good you are though? Personally, I joined to have fun... not to win stuff... but I never knew how bugs could be exploited so ruthlessly... i don't find that fun tbh


I see where you're coming from, and I agree with you. But the sentiment still stands. If you wanna be a better player, you should train and learn the game. Not alter it to a simplified version.
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:09 pm

well yes... agree with that sentiment too... however, i certainly don't see the keeper running off the pitch being fixed as making it more simple! the absolute opposite in fact, learn a new goal or be prepared to see less than 100% of them go in...

honestly... i can't believe that people would rather score a clear bug exploit goal than play fairly, it's disheartening to say the least
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby thor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:37 pm

Lee W wrote:isn't the keeper being off the pitch making it infinitely more simple?

The GK manipulation is in the game. If it was removed, it would make defending simpler. When you are playing a good player they usually have many possible ways to reliably score a goal from a given attacking situation, so defending most often becomes picking your poison, and hopefully forcing the attacker into the situation that has the least probability of a goal. If the GK could not be manipulated behind the line, I would not be so concerned about defending those situations. To me, the best and most fun part about Kick Off 2 is being able to play with anticipation.

Lee W wrote:and ofc most of the goals are with the keeper behind the line, cause you guys know where the sweet spot is to make him do that... i know i've scored plenty when he's been in the goal though so there's no way on earth it wouldn't be a viable goal still, but at least a fair one

It isn't about a spot, it is about how you move the ball before finishing. If it was a sweet-spot, the skill needed to score without the manipulation would be the same.

Lee W wrote:should it really be about how good you are though? Personally, I joined to have fun... not to win stuff... but I never knew how bugs could be exploited so ruthlessly... i don't find that fun tbh

It is the World Cup, after all. I try to win every game I play, but regardless of the result I have fun. And don't tell me you didn't have fun, Lee, I saw you smiling at least once! :D
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Re: Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:51 pm

thor wrote:... don't tell me you didn't have fun, Lee, I saw you smiling at least once! :D


screenshot or it didn't happen!! :D

i had great fun, but I was in the silver cup, that goal isn't really done at that level... had i been in the gold cup, i'd have been slaughtered, which still would have been fun, but every time 'that' goal happens, it's like a my soul is being drained... i guess i've seen it a lot more cause of playing top players online a lot, but i guarantee, new, less good, players are gonna feel the same way when they're being hammered with 'that' goal.

i mentioned it in a previous post but i'll put it forward again now... would it at least be possible to make the keeper fix a choice? but both players need to agree to disable the fix if they so choose... like how the trapfix is meant to be like?
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