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Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:24 am
by Freshmaker
Steve1977 wrote:Jorn, Gaz tried to resolve this argument via PM away from the forum yet you chose to wash your dirty linen out in public and far from never getting upset on a forum, i then see a tirade aimed at me littered with swearing that even cites your divorce. Stating you'v had to self moderate your post too. Geeze, respect to your comments that you hate to not get along with people because Im exactly the same but then to seemingly do the opposite on the forum deters me from going to World Cups to be honest as I hate the possibility someones putting on a false facade. Lots of others feel this way too which is why when the going gets tough on the forum, so many people leave as they simply cant be arsed.

You write so much sense in this post Steve, so it surprises me that you have to say stuff that not true as well. Please, go back and re-read that post of mine and count the swear-words you find it littered with. The only reason it cites my divorce is to explain something to you. It would be nice if you'd take that into consideration. What it makes me feel now is that you think I've "used" it as an argument to win any emotions. I hope it's not, 'cause that's not the case. You wondered why I didn't approach you at the Athens WC, I explained why. All the swearwords I WANTED to write there, wich i selfmoderated, comes because that divorce is still a part of my life, pissing me off on a personal level. Sorry about that.

And, as I said earlier; Yes, Garry sent me a PM, but at the time I didn't find that PM very constructive from my point of view. Still don't. He told me what of my statements I had to retract to restore peace, 1 of the statements I have retracted, the other I can't. That's about it.

And as far as using the PM-system to make things better is obviously a joke. Yesterday I sent a PM to JamK, wich he hasn't bothered to answer, other then adding a further paragraph to his post. What I wanted to point out was that I didn't start this thread "knowing" it would "kick up a shit storm", and I don't think I'm taking "the morale high ground".

1 - I can't know what's gonna kick up a shit storm and not. The reason for me starting this thread was that there allready was a discussion going on in the tournaments-section, and as I wasn't going to the WC I felt it wrong to post there, yet I wanted to air my thoughts about this, as I felt that there was a couple of things I find important wich wasn't being taken into consideration. And as you can see, in the beginning this thread was actually quite good, with Steve Camber giving valuable insight. It all changed when I asked you to tone it down. Maybe I was in the wrong there, as you said, I totally misunderstood your post. But maybe you also misunderstood my request of you toning it down. I've said so before, and I'll say it again: it was the first line of your post I reacted to, where it can be seen as you're not accepting BB to have a say. I probably should've explained that better at once.

2 - about morale high ground. I don't know. It's just not amusing having this thread at all. What I wanted to was to air my views, not end up in a total war. When I come to the point where the first thing I think about when I wake up in the morning is that I have to hook up and check the forums to see if I'm still "fighting", then it's taking a too big bite of my life. I don't think it's about morale high ground, it's about a priority.

You seem insistent on focusing on Gaz using capital letters

Yes. I am. Using captial letters can be looked at as MAKING A POINT. It can also be looked at as yelling. When using letters this size it's like yelling into someones face!!! See my point? Having someone yelling in your face is not an experience making you wanna say "oh, sorry. Can we be friends now?"

Imagine if 1 day after there had been comments from the other side of the fence eh? This would have riled up lots of people and wouldnt have been healthy, just as this thread has shown.

See where you're coming from, but don't think there would be any less fighting about this topic anyway, whenever it would've been opened. As you say, it's a powder keg. Besides, as I said, look at the beginning of this thread. Read the first page. It's not about fighthing. Not at all. It's about discussing a topic, with Camber offering valuable insight.

However, I'd like you to do just one thing for me. You're blaming me for "enjoying these heated exchanges" as if I'm deliberately causing a stir. You brought up insidents dating over 3 years back, trying to make me look like a unfriendly trouble-maker. From my perspective, we are 2 sides here, it's me "against" you, Garry and Simon. You want me to retract and admit to this and that. What about yourselves? Have you done everything right?

The rest of your post is perfectly fine, and I agree to much of it, if not all.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:16 am
by Robert Swift
My job doesn't involve an office in the UK but I attend Birmingham tournaments.

As far as forum wars go, the forum is the place for forum wars. At least people are posting. As long as things are kept on the forum then there isn't a problem. The thread will be locked if it gets to the stage where it might seriously put off potential newbies from associating with such weirdos/bastards.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:24 pm
by Bounty Bob
Robert Swift wrote:My job doesn't involve an office in the UK but I attend Birmingham tournaments.
But you're super awesome. :D

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:23 pm
by hogstrom
We started this thread with talks about the two slides. Again, i see a huge differance between the two slides. Two weeks before the Wcup in Dusseldorf we had the voting about them both together - keep them or not. The side that wanted to keep both slides in the game won with a couple of votes. I wonder what would have happened if they would have been voted separately? My guess is that the autoslide would have been voted out of the game and that the trap-slide would have been kept in the game with better marginal than a couple of votes.

Just guessing here, still i have a feeling the KOA is much closer throwing away the autos than the try to trap slides. I can only think about 2-3 names that would defend the autos while there is a few more than me and Jorn that is ready to fight for the autoslides to be kept in the game, bug or not.

In short: like Cato said "otherwise i belive Carthage must be destroyed", i say otherwise i belive the two slides must be separated.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:32 pm
by gdh82
Itching to post a few more thoughts on this topic but I have zero time right now. I've got a big week at work with some important deadlines plus we've got some exciting tourney prospects in full swing. It may not be until the end of the week but, as they say, I'll be back! (not shouting, just getting your attention).

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:00 am
by Jam King
just a quick one, sorry freshie i didnt realise i had a pm off yourself, im not a regular poster on the forum and to be honest have never used the pm facility so genuinly didnt notice ur message and wouldnt have ignored it anyway, will have a look at it now and get back to u tomorrow as im shattered and have an early start in the morning, cheers.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:04 am
by Freshmaker
No problem.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:19 am
by gdh82
OK. With work deadlines met and no tourney to plan I've got some time to breath now. Plus it sounds like the sooner the better. Just as I was at the weekend, Jorn sounds keen to draw a line under this now too, with his 'locking' request. I do however want to make some observations on all this, which I hope will be received constructively.

Looking back, this thread does exactly what it says on the tin. It seems to me to be all about Jorn's thoughts. I was foolish to think it could be broader than that. When I have suggested there are other ways of looking at the issue he protests 'I am still gonna say my piece. No one can deny me my right'. Above all else, it seems, the only thing that really matters is experessing his point of view. The funny thing is no one is denying him this. (Incidentally and as a comparison, take 10 seconds to read the first post here. Flawed and naive maybe but it was at least an honest attempt to listen to all sides of the debate).

One of the most frustrating aspects of this thread imo has been Jorn's apparent inability to distinguish between the call for a vote and the demand for a slidepreference. They are two very different things. John H is also calling for a vote but is he seeking to play slide free? Of course not. And I don't see Jorn accusing him of forcing people to play his way. Even Bbob adds that 'everyone agrees that a vote is the fairest way', and he even goes as far as saying organisers who refuse a vote are 'dictators' (his words not mine). There's a strange irony here. You seem so caught up in having your say on the matter that you don't appear to recognise that a vote would merely allow all players to have a say on the matter.

Having unsuccessfully posted to this thread, trying to explain how my position was very different to Jorn's claims, and seeing where this thread was going, last saturday I chose to pm Jorn....
Hi Jorn,

I hope you don't mind me pm-ing you. I do so in peace!

Like you, I put a lot of time and effort into KOA activities, and get a lot of fun out of the community and the friendships. Of course there are going to be times when we disagree. Even where this happens I strive not to fall out with people. Throughout this thread I have acknowledged your point of view (use of the word 'lobby', the objectivity of 'all or nothing' bug fixes, and the 'fairness' argument) but you do not seem to do the same with my posts?

I am also deeply offended when you publicly accuse me of things that are simply not true (see below). With respect, you completely misunderstand me. I therefore politely ask you to consider taking back those accusations. Considering we're both moderators, I think it would be good to see this resolved respectfully. I will publicly accept a full retraction from you with good manners. If this isn't possible, then maybe you should back up your accusations with evidence? Continuing a dispute is in no one's interest though, let alone the KOA. This is supposed to be the time of good will after all!

Forum life can be a laugh but it can also be a ball ache sometimes!. Unfortunately we haven't yet but meeting in person is usually much better than forum interactions. I remember Steve Camber saying to me in Germany how things like the World Cup remind us how we're all friends really. I hope the same is true of us?


I hope others can see it wasn't a demand for an apology at all. In a friendly, polite manner I explained I was offended and asked him to consider taking back the claims he was making against me. In hindsight I don't know why I bothered.

Jorn's pm in response was blunt to say the least, and didn't seem to comprehend that I could be offended. He matter of factly stated there was nothing he could do, that this is how forums are and I just accept that . He even had the audacity to say he was only discussing stuff and not people, when clearly he had made parts of this thread very much about me! Trivial but there was no friendly greeting nor closing. Feeling ignored and belittled I let of some steam with that post of various font sizes. Re-reading the actual content of that post, I still think it isn't unreasonable.

I have taken more than my fair share of criticism for slide-related issues (not all of it has been justified imo) but have swallowed some humble pie and apologised in the past. Since then I've been ultra-neutral, declaring my preferences are no better than anyone else's, and calling for mutual respect. Because of this, I was indignant when Jorn falsely accused me.

Although you have backtracked - now calling your own claims an exaggeration - you still argue that I have been conducting a slide campaign for the past two years. Yet your evidence for this is threadbare and outdated. Your false accusations bother me much less now. Your arguments against me are without credibility.

A number of other people have above raised the question of forum standards. During the 2010 WC, you repeatedly post to the attendee's voting thread even though you're not going. Yet you even claim in this thread you didn't do this! Then, while the the vote is still taking place you start this controversial, divisive and one-sided topic, and everyone knows where that'll go. Others have commented on your argumentative manner. For me, there's been a couple of particular low points in this thread. One was where you decided to split hairs over my english (meaning of 'you' ) and my maths ('work on your maths'). To me that comes across as nothing more than petty, condescending and small minded. When Steve questions you about your accusations against me, you protest by saying you're not accusing me of "murder, rape, terrorism" etc. Come on, I really can't dignify that level of debate. You seem preoccupied with text size rather than the meaning of words. If anyone cares to check, I regularly use capitals, large font and emboldened text in my tourney write-ups for emphasis and clarity. I accept that a long passage in capitals looks like a rant but that wasn't what I was doing at all. It concerns me how Jorn focuses on the tiny details sometimes, like when he ignored the content of Si's recent post, except for the timestamp. Indeed, you dismiss posts by Steve and Simon on the basis that they are my friends. They're not blindly sticking up for me, they're sticking up for a reasonable level of argument. Us moderators are of course no better than anyone else but imho we should aim to post to a slightly higher standard than just any tom, dick or rikki. I'm no saint but with respect, the conduct I'm describing is below a decent forum standard imo.

I hope Jorn or anyone else takes a while to think about this post as a whole, before quoting this bit and that. I really don't see there's much mileage in that. Forum fights might be an entertainment for the few but they're a deterent for the many, especially the newcomer. The place is pretty quiet at the best of times so it doesn't need any help in that direction. I'm actually making this post because we (yes, all of us) can be better than this. We all know that at it's best, the KOA is a great place to be. Why not strive to keep it this way?

EDIT: I have listened to what has been said and promptly removed Jorn's pm this morning. I relise that pms are by nature private and did not post lightly, and had felt that disclosure was justified in this instance. Jorn had publicly complained about our pm exchange and publicly questioned the content of my pm. I therefore felt the best and most open way to respond was to produce the evidence. Jorn's pm contained no personal or particularly sensitive information, and imo is simply indicative of his blunt and unaccomodating stance towards me. Nevertheless I now accept this was an error of judgement.

I must finish by saying that it gives me no pleasure whatsoever to make this kind of post. Like any self-respecting individual, however, if false claims are posted against them, then the offender should expect to be challenged. My attempts to resolve this quietly both publicly and privately were effectively ignored and unfortunately it has come to this.

EDIT: Further paragraph removed and remaining content edited in good faith following discussion below

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:38 am
by Freshmaker
Jam King wrote:just a quick one, sorry freshie i didnt realise i had a pm off yourself, im not a regular poster on the forum and to be honest have never used the pm facility so genuinly didnt notice ur message and wouldnt have ignored it anyway, will have a look at it now and get back to u tomorrow as im shattered and have an early start in the morning, cheers.

Answer to PM recieved, and as far as I'm concerned we seem to ba a'ok.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:10 am
by Freshmaker
Information to those who are interested:

Garry and myself are currently ongoing "behind-the-scenes"-talks to get wrongdoings done throughout this thread made right.
As a part of that Garry's removed his last post, something I'm very happy for.
On my side, I wanna take this opportunity to say that it was wrong of me to say that Garry's been running a slide-free campaign for the last 2 years. It's also important that it's understood that when I've indicated that Garry and others wanna force other players to play with undesired settings it's a matter of MY opinion. This is related to MY thoughts of how this matter should be done. It's ME thinking that when the vote was done for this years WC, and the slides was voted to stay in, then that should be it. For Garry and others wanting a new vote is all in their rights, and IF they should win a vote, if it's being held, it's up to me, and others, to decide wether we wanna go to tournaments with that setting or not. How a vote should be conducted is, at the moment, something I don't have any idea about.


Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:29 pm
by Jam King
Fair play to the pair of u.

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:41 am
by Freshmaker
Thanks Simon.

My final words on the fight we ended up in.

Originally this thread could be seen as narrow and that it didn't accomodate others views. Just look at the title. My thoughts. I started it to air my thoughts.
However, during the first few pages Camber, among others, offer valuable insight, and we actually discuss the topic. Those reading can also note that I even change my stand a bit. Later however, I re-change. That's due to a post in the tournaments-section where Camber gets a bit uncertain wether the trapslide is to be considered a bug or not. To me that makes a huge difference. However, this post is not about that. I'll leave that to when we hopefully gets this debate back on topic. Topic will be changed as well, to "thoughts about slides" - or something - Any ideas?

I can fully sympathise with Garry for feeling falsely accused. Not a good feeling at all. Me saying that Garry's running a campaign to get the slides removed is something he reacts strongly to, and I sympathise.

If I've caused offence during this thread, and in that way stopped people from feeling like expressing themselves I do apologise. Wrongs have been made, wich definately made this thread go the wrong way.

I also see that my reaction to Garry's pm should've been done else and more calm. I was not in a good mood, after feeling that my request to Steve about toning stuff down got a reaction that shocked me a bit. Not an excuse, but an explenation.

During this thread there's been deliverd a few posts that don't live up to what should be forum standards. I've made my fair share, others have as well. Through this post I'm hoping to show that I acknowledge this fact, and hope others will as well. After all we're only humans, and we can't be expected to do anything else than to make our wrongs right, and to learn from them.

My final statemt on this is that the KOA is bigger than me and my ego. There are still things said in this thread against me that I don't enjoy. I'm glad Garry removed his last post, because it contained material that I would have needed to adress. For Garry to remove it, makes it so much more easy and acceptable for me to "lay down my arms" and leave the fight behind.
Naturally I expect other "debate"-members to acknowledge this.
It would mean a great deal to me to experience other parts of this fight to show mutual respect and to do the same thing. This is not to be seen as a demand.

As said, this is my final statement on this matter. I hope that anyone bearing grudges against me for what's happened in this thread will be able to accept this and join me in moving on. I don't expect us all to be friends, simply to act in a civil manner and let this forum evolve in a friendly tone.

Jørn - Freshie

Re: My thought about the slide"bug"fixes.

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:16 pm
by gdh82
I'd hoped to be more positive than this even though I welcome Jorn's post and apology. I'm a fair minded person and I wanted to end this saga every bit as much as him but I've found our facebook conversation very difficult indeed. My concessions including the temporary removal and multiple re-edit of my previous post weren't being matched and sadly, it felt more like a series of demands and ultimatums than a 2-way discussion. Like my pm before I really don't know why I bothered but, that said, I do not want to prolong this any futher. I fully accept my posting of his pm was an error of judgement and my 'big-fonted' post was counter-productive. The rest we'll just have to agree to disagree. Let's move on.

EDIT: A month later and with a better perspective I've just read again this whole topic to find that Jorn has re-worked his top post and re-written some of his replies. Draw your own conclusions on 'airbrushing' your own thread, but makes no mistake changes to tone and content mean it no longer represents what was said at the time. Do not believe everything that you read!