'Weakening the Leading Team According to Score' Suggestion

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dnielsen
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby dnielsen » Thu May 21, 2009 2:15 pm

Steve Camber wrote:I am liking the idea of every goal becoming harder to score when I'm punishing some noob like Robert. I can laugh progressively louder as each lob finds the target. :D


And that's of course another effect I am looking for. :lol:
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu May 21, 2009 2:42 pm

Steve Camber wrote:I can laugh progressively louder as each lob finds the target. :D
Especially as you'll have ignored all the changes when a lob is performed, so they remain unaffected. :twisted:
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu May 21, 2009 2:49 pm

dnielsen wrote:With regard to lowering the keeper attribute, I don't know. I mean, we are already firmly used to pace being a variable all over the pitch, so that you are sometimes slower than your opponent. While seeing shots being parried or go through the keeper more often kind of disturbs a fundamental gameplay balance. I would rather help a player being behind by giving him a bit more room to play "proper Kick Off" by virtue of the opponent being slower, than I would help him by having him try any odd shot from any odd distance in the hope that the opponent keeper will fumble. But it's possible anyway. Perhaps only a very mild weakening could be used. Anyway, keep in mind that a keeper is already weakened simply by having a slower pace.
A big problem for the weaker players is not being able to score the goals in the same situations that the top players can. If someone can't score enough goals, then all the penalties you put on the leading player become pointless as the weaker player can't physically catch up anyway. All you end up doing is limiting the magnitude of the victory, rather than allowing the losing player to catch up. So I'd say if you don't reduce keeper attributes, you might as well do nothing.

Your comments on the shooting are fair and I agree.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Torchiador » Thu May 21, 2009 4:46 pm

Anyway, even if on principle, that wouldn't be a bad thing, I think that I wouldn't like to play the whole game handicapped by a rule.
In 17 years I never eared someone that wanted to play as team B while A>B.
Remember that the main changes we had, they were to have fight in equal terms.
I can understand that it isn't pleasant to be defeated and more if the defeat is heavy. But I would be unpleased to play a KO2 that doesn't run in the proper right way. I wouldn't like to play a such adulterated KO2. KO2 has some characteristics. To change these characteristics would be to mine the gameplay.
Of course I would play with a sort of option enabled for fun, but absolutely not in a tournament.
My opinion is that a tournament is made with a purpose. there is the love for the gathering but there is also the love for the challenge.
In baseball there are rules to set the fight in equal terms. In Soccer there are rules to set the fight in equal terms.
Probably my considerations are not so popular but I think that are at least fair.
A sort of mercy rule is used this year in Formula 1 and look what a shit is happening, probably Ferrari will drop out next year.
A mercy rule could be good in Mario Karts but I don't think that it belongs to a KO2 challenge mentality.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu May 21, 2009 5:02 pm

Torchiador wrote:Anyway, even if on principle, that wouldn't be a bad thing, I think that I wouldn't like to play the whole game handicapped by a rule.
In 17 years I never eared someone that wanted to play as team B while A>B.
Remember that the main changes we had, they were to have fight in equal terms.
I can understand that it isn't pleasant to be defeated and more if the defeat is heavy. But I would be unpleased to play a KO2 that doesn't run in the proper right way. I wouldn't like to play a such adulterated KO2. KO2 has some characteristics. To change these characteristics would be to mine the gameplay.
Of course I would play with a sort of option enabled for fun, but absolutely not in a tournament.
My opinion is that a tournament is made with a purpose. there is the love for the gathering but there is also the love for the challenge.
In baseball there are rules to set the fight in equal terms. In Soccer there are rules to set the fight in equal terms.
Probably my considerations are not so popular but I think that are at least fair.
A sort of mercy rule is used this year in Formula 1 and look what a shit is happening, probably Ferrari will drop out next year.
A mercy rule could be good in Mario Karts but I don't think that it belongs to a KO2 challenge mentality.

All this, especially the bold parts, are words of ultimate wisdom.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Steve Camber » Thu May 21, 2009 6:01 pm

Purely slower pace is possible I think.

The issue of being slower than your opponent at 3-3 after 7 mins after being 3-0 ahead is not a problem. The player running stats would still be intact, working as they are now.. just with a scale applied at the point of use.

I'll get to work on a JFF option.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Steve1977 » Thu May 21, 2009 7:28 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
gdh82 wrote:On a wider point and I hope I'm not speaking too soon but the big thing for me is how refreshing it is that we're even able to have this discussion! To talk about changes to the gameplay engine without all that melodrama and hostility is very welcome. Underlying the slide threads from last year was essentially a desire to be able to openly debate KO2CV development. Maybe they weren't in vain after all. Whether they were or not, and whether Dagh's latest suggestion is implemented or not, this has got to be the way forward.

I knew you'd bring it up! As we're now past the point of no return, it makes little difference.
Anyway, I still think the slide change is wrong and should be forgotten, but hey-ho. I've never been against discussion, just against that particular point. Am I doomed to forever be reminded of the reason I no longer play kick off, or can you just let it lie once and for all? :roll:


It is kinda pertinent to the conversation though because given the fuss that was kicked up over the auto slide debate it has naturally put people on tenderhooks. These days you have to be careful what you post in the Kick Off 2 discussion forum because any 'radical' idea seemingly needs a disclaimer just incase people start writing out their retirement posts prematurely. Given the recent 'debate history', it is suprising that you have stopped playing Kick Off because of Auto Slides but you are encouraging a more radical change such as this which handicaps and artificially fluctuates the teams abilities and changing quite drastically the gameplay - which is what you was so wary of in the slide debates.

Whenever you mention about why you have stopped playing Kick Off, it's sort of a knee jerk reaction to try and reason with you so apologies for this post but considering you was wary of a 'slipperly slope' of change, it's actually pretty cool to see you welcoming further additions and allows you to see this particular change through the same eyes that we see Auto Slides - a natural progression to make the game even better. Not that I see this idea in the same glowing praise however (I wouldn't like to see it being used at tournaments for instance - not unless I was playing a new player / player below a certain pos. anyway.)

However, now is not the time to discuss the why's and wherefores of tournament rules - the organisers can do that if they ever want to implement it. As Gaz says, nice to see the Kick Off 2 discussion forum once again capitvated by Kick Off 2 discussion. :)
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu May 21, 2009 8:20 pm

Steve1977 wrote:Given the recent 'debate history', it is suprising that you have stopped playing Kick Off because of Auto Slides but you are encouraging a more radical change such as this which handicaps and artificially fluctuates the teams abilities and changing quite drastically the gameplay - which is what you was so wary of in the slide debates.
I'm just discussing the ideas. If you want me to play a tournament with it, I'll have two reasons not to play. JFF isn't a problem with anything. Slide free ko2 is a good jff option too. My only problem is with the adoption of these jff feature for use in tournament play, and that position won't change.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Steve1977 » Thu May 21, 2009 8:35 pm

I thought you were 'for' this being used in tournaments when I read this bit:

Bounty Bob wrote:The biggest draw back would be the fact that goal difference counts to the ranking points, so there would be slightly less point gains by the high goal scorers. But victory margin should never have been a factor in the first place, so I say we forget it, re-calculate the rankings and carry on like we never had that factor in the first place.


Along with the other bits about it not really making much of a difference etc. I mistakenly thought you wanted to introduce this new feature whenever it was ready.

You do raise an interesting question about how things are great for JFF but not for tournaments...but, what if you liked a JFF option that much ? I'v offered to host tournaments without JFF options but you'v politely declined because the choice wouldn't be unnaminous. But surely the opposite is true...what about the people who attended Athens that voted for 2 JFF options to be used? Although they knew the vote wasnt unnaminous, they still attended and enjoyed it.
Saying you'v stopped playing KO2 due to Auto Slides suggests they'v definetly be taken out and the KOA commitee has ruled out ever putting them back in...but it's not like that at all because Slide Free tournaments do exist and I'v offered to host them. Gaz came out with a great idea of compromise whereby we have one with and one without - thus everyone is happy then.

Perhaps if this idea had been discussed along with alternative ideas of the first half of a tournament being slide free, the 2nd without, THEN maybe this act of positivity would have had an affect on the UK Champs. After a few months of tournaments whereby everyone is happy, I'm sure people would have then looked at ways and great discussions would have been had with regards to integerate this 'everyones a winner' attitude in UK Champs...maybe have a quota (50%) being slide free and a quota without.
By discussing we wouldnt have got people getting the wrong idea with the mistaken belief that all tournaments now had to have these two settings in. If you, Waynie or Sid hosted a tournament without Auto's then I'd certainly attend.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby gdh82 » Fri May 22, 2009 11:11 am

Steve1977 wrote:A great and fresh idea though Dagh and I'd definetly attend tournaments with this option. It's a change which might actually encourage newbies to stay a bit longer as well. You could mirror this idea with real life...when a team goes a few goals up, they physologically take their foot off the pedal whilst the other team huff and puff to try and get back into the game.

If this was implemented I'd like to see the subs unaffected as it would be in their nature to be fresh and vibrant - would then introduce a whole new tactical level to the subs as well.

This idea is more radical than Autoslides though, so I'm putting my tin hat on now given how much debate that raged, as essentially it's changing the gameplay and having a fluctuating A>B, A<B.

The possibilities this has for new players/players who don't get the chance to practice sounds very exciting - no longer will they lose most games and it'l encourage them to attend more tournaments - perhaps this should be this new ideas main focus...
Maybe Mark could implement something within the fixture generator which flags up players who have to play with it on (by identifying the ranking position...so someone at 1st place would have to use it when playing someone ranked #100 but when the two titans battle it out (Dagh and Gianni) it would be normal Kick Off.


Bounty Bob wrote:
gdh82 wrote:On a wider point and I hope I'm not speaking too soon but the big thing for me is how refreshing it is that we're even able to have this discussion! To talk about changes to the gameplay engine without all that melodrama and hostility is very welcome. Underlying the slide threads from last year was essentially a desire to be able to openly debate KO2CV development. Maybe they weren't in vain after all. Whether they were or not, and whether Dagh's latest suggestion is implemented or not, this has got to be the way forward.
I knew you'd bring it up! As we're now past the point of no return, it makes little difference.
Anyway, I still think the slide change is wrong and should be forgotten, but hey-ho. I've never been against discussion, just against that particular point. Am I doomed to forever be reminded of the reason I no longer play kick off, or can you just let it lie once and for all? :roll:


As you can see it was actaully Ste who mentioned 'that subject' in an earlier post!!! I subsequently referred to the discussion threads and how in contrast to last year, forum discussions nowadays seem far more healthy. Not sure why you nevertheless singled out my post ??? Not that Ste has done anything wrong either btw.

There's a danger that you could begin to sound like the kid who won't play footy unless everyone uses his favourite football. The irony is you are free to host with the tourney settings of your preference, just like everyone else in the KOA. If you ask me, you need to host yourself a good old slide-enabled local tourney - and soon! I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'd much rather hear about you having fun with KO2 ffs!

Like I'd said recently, I've no appetite for keeping feuds going and I post this to clarify and to be constructive. I hope it will be taken that way.
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Troglos » Fri May 22, 2009 1:31 pm

gdh82 wrote:There's a danger that you could begin to sound like the kid who won't play footy unless everyone uses his favourite football. The irony is you are free to host with the tourney settings of your preference, just like everyone else in the KOA. If you ask me, you need to host yourself a good old slide-enabled local tourney - and soon! I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'd much rather hear about you having fun with KO2 ffs!



There is a mistake in your comparison because the "favourite football" teorically should be just KO2 game, that should be the favourite footbal of all!
Autoslide on/off, this new proposal today and who know what tomorrow, will not be the favourite footbal for the koa but only the "favourite football" of gdh, or Bbob etc. In this way I think will be inevitable to see more fractures and absence in tournaments and in jff games because of too many different "favourite football" the player will want to use.

Today a game in which teamA is equal to teamB, the only differences are between the men who handle the joy. So Why to give and handicap to Torchiador (for example) because he is stronger than me? What is the satisfaction to keep a draw against Dagh because his team is slower than mine for a period of the game? And then, if I lost 10-0 against Gianni, surely I'll not enjoy, but if (for example) Gianni score this 10 gol in the first 2 minutes of the game, I think both me and Gianni will not be amused: me for the defeat and Gianni for to have played a game with a team dumb and slow.
One of the historical reasons why KO2 is so good is because it has a fast game, if you remove the speed, you take away the fun.




gdh82 wrote:To talk about changes to the gameplay engine without all that melodrama and hostility is very welcome.


In truth to talk about changes to the gameplay engine is NOT very welcome :lol: .
Years of fight for change a pixel or not, and now with an angelic phrase you think to discuss about change the gameplay as we are speaking about weather :roll: :roll:
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby gdh82 » Fri May 22, 2009 4:32 pm

I'm not sure you've fully understood me there, Marco. You might be taking individual sentences out of context and getting a different meaning that sounds far more divisive than it is!

The line about the favourite football is merely making the point that we don't all have to play with the same tournament settings, and is part of a positive post encouraging BBob to get back to playing KO2 the way he enjoys it. There has always has been a degree of variation in how we enjoy our KO2 and that should remain.

The emphasis of the second line is on the ability to discuss 'change' freely without forum hassle. Its nothing to do with being flippant and carelessly introducing changes - it is about being open and rational, weighing up the pros and cons of whatever is being discussed.

I'm not sure if you've read it but if you haven't, have a look at Dagh's post about playing KO2 in many ways. I think this is a healthy way of looking at things imo
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Re: KO2 Competition Version Wish List

Postby Steve1977 » Fri May 22, 2009 7:01 pm

Troglos wrote:
gdh82 wrote:There's a danger that you could begin to sound like the kid who won't play footy unless everyone uses his favourite football. The irony is you are free to host with the tourney settings of your preference, just like everyone else in the KOA. If you ask me, you need to host yourself a good old slide-enabled local tourney - and soon! I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'd much rather hear about you having fun with KO2 ffs!



There is a mistake in your comparison because the "favourite football" teorically should be just KO2 game, that should be the favourite footbal of all!
Autoslide on/off, this new proposal today and who know what tomorrow, will not be the favourite footbal for the koa but only the "favourite football" of gdh, or Bbob etc. In this way I think will be inevitable to see more fractures and absence in tournaments and in jff games because of too many different "favourite football" the player will want to use.



We have offered MANY TIMES to have a slide enabled tournament but people have declined the offer. So when you have 5 guys who wouldn't mind playing it with this disabled what you gonna do? Of course you'r gonna remove it. But we have tried, oh lord have we tried.

The most ironic thing about all this is I bet the guys who want KO2 to stay as it is are also the same people who always download the latest patches for Fifa :lol:
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