When JFF becomes the norm... - Is it really that definitive?

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Steve1977
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When JFF becomes the norm... - Is it really that definitive?

Postby Steve1977 » Thu May 21, 2009 8:41 pm

Given that this thread is having two seperate conversations at the moment I thought it might be best to continue it in here. So, Ladies and Gentlemen but your hands together to ...

When JFF becomes the norm

I thought you were 'for' this being used in tournaments when I read this bit:

Bounty Bob wrote:The biggest draw back would be the fact that goal difference counts to the ranking points, so there would be slightly less point gains by the high goal scorers. But victory margin should never have been a factor in the first place, so I say we forget it, re-calculate the rankings and carry on like we never had that factor in the first place.


Along with the other bits about it not really making much of a difference etc. I mistakenly thought you wanted to introduce this new feature whenever it was ready.

You do raise an interesting question about how things are great for JFF but not for tournaments...but, what if you liked a JFF option that much ? I'v offered to host tournaments without JFF options but you'v politely declined because the choice wouldn't be unnaminous. But surely the opposite is true...what about the people who attended Athens that voted for 2 JFF options to be used? Although they knew the vote wasnt unnaminous, they still attended and enjoyed it.
Saying you'v stopped playing KO2 due to Auto Slides suggests they'v definetly be taken out and the KOA commitee has ruled out ever putting them back in...but it's not like that at all because Slide Free tournaments do exist and I'v offered to host them. Gaz came out with a great idea of compromise whereby we have one with and one without - thus everyone is happy then.

Perhaps if this idea had been discussed along with alternative ideas of the first half of a tournament being slide free, the 2nd without, THEN maybe this act of positivity would have had an affect on the UK Champs. After a few months of tournaments whereby everyone is happy, I'm sure people would have then looked at ways and great discussions would have been had with regards to integerate this 'everyones a winner' attitude in UK Champs...maybe have a quota (50%) being slide free and a quota without.
By discussing we wouldnt have got people getting the wrong idea with the mistaken belief that all tournaments now had to have these two settings in. If you, Waynie or Sid hosted a tournament without Auto's then I'd certainly attend.

Whilst it might look like tournies have become slide free. That's only because the hosts have chosen to do so. Rewind a few years and Sid hosted loads with Auto Slides, doesent mean there was a ban on disabling of Auto Slides.
Basically, Kick Off 2 is whatever you want it to be.
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Re: When JFF becomes the norm... - Is it really that definitive?

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu May 21, 2009 9:06 pm

Steve1977 wrote:I thought you were 'for' this being used in tournaments when I read this bit:

Bounty Bob wrote:The biggest draw back would be the fact that goal difference counts to the ranking points, so there would be slightly less point gains by the high goal scorers. But victory margin should never have been a factor in the first place, so I say we forget it, re-calculate the rankings and carry on like we never had that factor in the first place.


Along with the other bits about it not really making much of a difference etc. I mistakenly thought you wanted to introduce this new feature whenever it was ready.
The quoted part is just me making the point that goal difference shouldn't be used in the rankings calculations. I've said it before, but obviously it's something that will always be. I was just using this new idea and with tongue in cheek, suggesting that we could now abolish the goal difference calculation and start again.

It won't make much difference, because if we aren't playing KO2 any more, then changing something else won't matter. Might as well open the flood gates and slip down the slope.
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Re: When JFF becomes the norm... - Is it really that definitive?

Postby Torchiador » Fri May 22, 2009 1:58 pm

I don't believe that to abolish the goal difference calculation would help to stop big score games.
I remember in 2004 we tried a sort of rule to preserve the rookies against the bigs and we didn't count the goal scored in day1
The result was that we didn't avoid big scores against rookies in day 1and we didn't assign the top scorer trophy to Mark P who was the real top scorer of that WC (don't curse me, Spyros! I know, with a better organization we had had a playout games and you would have improved your stats! but unfortunately...)
Besides this one, I think that players like to improve themselves. Stats are the thermometer to see the goodness of the their improvements. So I guess that many player will try to score to death even if goal difference would be abolished in ranking counts.
So? what we would have to do? to obscure KOASI? to delete KOA stats analyser?
Big scores aren't avoidable. nobody can avoid the big score, starting from me to the last player of the ranking. I suffered double digits against all the KOH players (but Maurizio :P ) Spyros obliterated my double digit ticket in our best of ten. Dagh risked heavily the double digit against me in game 2 final. I risked in London too.
Where is the problem? the more your opponent scores, the more you practice to defend.

Said that I will always pro JFF option, I would be pleasured so see, try and play other many things like the Sensible Soccer headers/sliding advanced controls. And I would be pleasured and honoured.
I'm quite sure that with some of these options, Kick Off 2 would be even better than the KO2 that we know now. and for sure I would play with it for fun.
But the challenge is with Kick off 2.
Don't forget the purpose of "Competition Version"
Easiest way to plug and play, saving lot of time to set up the game, without the problem of bugs that drive KO2 in guru meditation(which is a saving of time the same), finally allowing the fight in equal terms that wasn't possible with the old KO2 original disk.
I can understand that there are things that aren't so welcome in the game, like the unintended/undesired and auto slides. But, after joining some tournaments with that things removed, I experienced on my skin that something has been lost in the gameplay.
Yesterday night I was walking, eating an ice cream with the KOA founder, Gunther. We were speaking about KO2 and how the KOA became the KOA. In that walk I thought to much important has been the low aim setting that the KOA adopted in these years.
In my first days of KOA I was thinking that the low aim (I'm meaning the aim to standard setting) was a wrong approach to a deep and wide game like KO2. With hindsight I think that it has been the key to keep the thing leaving.
The World Cup isn't just the main and important tournament of the KOA but it is also the yearly gathering of the KOA.
In a year there are many tournaments and many rule settings. But there is just one world cup in which all the players should attend. and in a tournament like that it should be used the most standard rule set.
History said that we made some mistake and some of those was unavoidable because of lack of KO2 knowledge and technology. Just to make an example, the single game final in Dartford. the player who was Team A has been advantaged for the whole final. Without to count the PBD issue.
In the last year, thanks to Steve, John Wilson and Dagh, we understand that unintended slide isn't properly a bug. Or better, it isn't at all a bug. And above all, we understood that a thing that can be intended as small issue, in true , it has a heavy repercussion on the way to approach the ball and the way the game goes, in the last instance how much it is a real change of the gameplay.
I think that we can't overstep the bounds of the gameplay. The core of the game must be respected as there are to many tiny equilibriums that can be unbalanced. Of course in a JFF match we can do what we want and I think it is right to try some rules to taste the real goodness of a kind of option in a tournament. but the time we understand that we have overstepped the bounds, I think it's time to make a quick step back.
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Re: When JFF becomes the norm... - Is it really that definitive?

Postby Steve1977 » Fri May 22, 2009 7:12 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:

It won't make much difference, because if we aren't playing KO2 any more, then changing something else won't matter. Might as well open the flood gates and slip down the slope.


You were literally cartwheeling down the slope on the post before mate. Unsure if I see where you'r coming from though...although maybe I don't want to. So you'r not gonna attend tournaments anyway but lets discuss ways to use this in future tournaments, change how it's all ranked and re-iterate that it won't make much difference to the games anyway? Was the entire post tongue in cheek? :?

Will you attend the WC if Auto Slides are disabled? Knowing full well that many people there will have wanted them out of the game? This is what happened last year and quite rightly you attended and had a great time. But then you become all melodramatic about how 'ko2 is dead' 'we(?)'r not playing KO2 anymore', 'i don't want to attend when not everyone agrees on the rules' when invited to slide enabled local tournament. You don't really sound flexible and either want it your way or no-one elses.

We'r happy just having auto slides out (even happy to accomdate slide enabled tournaments.) But where do you draw the line from this slipperly slope of complaining? Should Robert Swift refuse to take part in a tournaments if there's no room for table leaners? Should James Beard refuse to play if he cant shout at the top of his lungs? This is the real slipperly slope - of not wanting to come to a compormise.

We would have had a fantastic time had we been able to compromise. Myself, Gaz and Si would have loved to down down into KORA territory, played Slide enabled tournaments and win some, lose some and draw some. Then a few months later you guys come into our den for some slide free games.

Besides, why you'r not playing if you can use whatever rules you choose? They'r not set in stone after all.
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Re: When JFF becomes the norm... - Is it really that definitive?

Postby Bounty Bob » Sat May 23, 2009 8:45 pm

Steve1977 wrote:You were literally cartwheeling down the slope on the post before mate.

How?

Steve1977 wrote:So you'r not gonna attend tournaments anyway but lets discuss ways to use this in future tournaments, change how it's all ranked and re-iterate that it won't make much difference to the games anyway? Was the entire post tongue in cheek? :?
If an idea is being put forward, I'll discuss it and give ideas. I was just giving my view on the idea and the best way to implement it. I thought these were the type of discussions Garry and/or you want to have. Why can't I discuss a subject?

Steve1977 wrote:Will you attend the WC if Auto Slides are disabled? Knowing full well that many people there will have wanted them out of the game? This is what happened last year and quite rightly you attended and had a great time.
There's a chance I will attend the WC if playing A=B with PBD choice. Any other changes will seriously reduce that chance and some changes will stop me attending altogether. What difference does it make whether anyone else wants the settings? If they attend with unfavoured settings, then that's their choice, doesn't bother me either way.

Steve1977 wrote: But then you become all melodramatic about how 'ko2 is dead' 'we(?)'r not playing KO2 anymore', 'i don't want to attend when not everyone agrees on the rules' when invited to slide enabled local tournament. You don't really sound flexible and either want it your way or no-one elses.
I just want to play the game how I enjoy it, why is that so difficult to understand? It's not a matter of not attending if everyone doesn't agree on the rules. It's a matter of enjoyment. If I were to play in a tournament with 3 other players, who all prefer to play without slides, why should they be forced to play with them in? It's not right for one person to dictate the settings when the majority don't want them.

Can you honestly say that not one person would complain about an auto slide that happened? As soon as that happened, I'd feel like a cunt because the slides were only enabled for my attendance. I'd be sitting there knowing that someone is pissed off, just because settings were set for my attendance. This would make the tournament unenjoyable for me. I don't want to be sitting there knowing that people aren't having as much fun as they could otherwise be having. Even if people don't make any complaints about settings during the games, there'd still be some annoyance about them, even if it's only mentioned outside of my presence, or kept bottled up.


Steve1977 wrote:Should Robert Swift refuse to take part in a tournaments if there's no room for table leaners? Should James Beard refuse to play if he cant shout at the top of his lungs?
If they won't enjoy it, they shouldn't play, it's very simple.

Steve1977 wrote:We would have had a fantastic time had we been able to compromise. Myself, Gaz and Si would have loved to down down into KORA territory, played Slide enabled tournaments and win some, lose some and draw some. Then a few months later you guys come into our den for some slide free games.
You really have to understand how much of a difference I see in the slide free games. I've played them and I just don't enjoy it. Every time a trap is made when it should be an unintended slide, it just pisses me off to the point that I don't want to play. To me, it's just a change that's been made to pander to those that can't be arsed to learn when it happens and play around it. If you enjoy it more with the change, then good for you and everyone else that does. Be happy and forget about one persons annoyance with it.

I really, really don't enjoy playing the slide free way, so won't play it. That's why the compromise is no good. I would hate half the games and the other half would just piss me off every time my opponent huffed, sighed, or complained as a slide happened.

It's nothing personal, that's why I still came along to say hello to everyone in Luton recently. Got nothing against anyone, just hate the slide change.

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