How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

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How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Logos » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:43 pm

Hi all,

The London International gave me the chance to play KO2 on the Amiga for the first time in 15 years. This great experience also led me to buy an Amiga 500 from Ebay in order to train on before any future tournaments. So, can anybody please tell me where I can get the latest CV version of KO2 for the Amiga?

Also, has anybody else noticed the fractional differences in speed and ball control compared to the PC version? It is only a slight difference but it made a big impact on my game play which is only used to the PC speed and rhythm. For example, I found that the ball stuck to the player longer on the Amiga version and it seemed that the running speed of players was slower too. Is this a fact or some kind of optical illusion caused by the flicker rate of the old TV monitors?

Cheers,

Andy
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Torchiador » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:21 am

Logos wrote:Hi all,

The London International gave me the chance to play KO2 on the Amiga for the first time in 15 years. This great experience also led me to buy an Amiga 500 from Ebay in order to train on before any future tournaments. So, can anybody please tell me where I can get the latest CV version of KO2 for the Amiga?

Also, has anybody else noticed the fractional differences in speed and ball control compared to the PC version? It is only a slight difference but it made a big impact on my game play which is only used to the PC speed and rhythm. For example, I found that the ball stuck to the player longer on the Amiga version and it seemed that the running speed of players was slower too. Is this a fact or some kind of optical illusion caused by the flicker rate of the old TV monitors?

Cheers,

Andy


Ehehehe, I guess that everybody here noticed that slight difference, that is one of the reasons because we are still playing Kick Off 2 on a real Amiga!
that "slow down is related to the dimension of your monitor: if you play KO2 on a big screen, it seems fast, if you play KO2 on 14" it seems slow. I suggest you to buy a Commodore 1084 monitor.

There are different ways to have the lastest CV or real floppy. You can do it by your own if you have a serial cable (no null/modem) but this way isn't exactly easy. maybe that someone can send you the disk!
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Tripod » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:52 am

Somebody send this man a floppy disk! Or, Andy, you'll just have to turn up at the next tournament somewhere around your area, I'm sure you'll be able to take a copy with you.

Definitely there's a difference playing on the real Amiga, I'm getting along ok with only practicing on WinUAE - I somehow feel it's easier to do all the moves and score on the Amiga, so if you can do it on the PC you should be confident. My Amiga 500 is broken, I already threw the 1084 monitor away, boy, it does deliver an ugly picture. Of course, the champ is right, it's the best setup. I might get myself an A600 at some point. It's more compact.
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Logos » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:43 am

Tripod wrote:Definitely there's a difference playing on the real Amiga, I'm getting along ok with only practicing on WinUAE - I somehow feel it's easier to do all the moves and score on the Amiga, so if you can do it on the PC you should be confident.


Yes Alex, I also found the moves were easier to pull off on the Amiga, especially the dribbling and close control moves. For me, the issue was the timing/speed difference, as mentoned before, which I noticed particularly in my one touch/trap passing build up play which felt completely out of sync. :lol:

Gianni, your point about the screen size/speed ratio now makes sense to me as I play WinUAE on a 26 inch LCD PC/TV monitor and the game appears much quicker on it.

Questions:

1) Does the screen resolution and refresh rate of a monitor relate to the game speed?

2) Gianni mentioned in a previous post that it was not a good idea to use the Amiga with LCD screens, why?

3) If I can't find the Commodore 1080 monitor would an old portable television be just as good?

If anyone is able to send a disk of the latest CV version for the Amiga, please PM me your PayPal email name and the cost and I'll pay you immediately.
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby dnielsen » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:32 pm

You probably know many of these things already, but here's the complete treatise on the issue :)

1) Does the screen resolution and refresh rate of a monitor relate to the game speed?

It does not relate to the game speed as it is "calculated" on the Amiga. But every delay somewhere between your joystick and your eyes will affect your perception of the timing/speed.

2) Gianni mentioned in a previous post that it was not a good idea to use the Amiga with LCD screens, why?

LCD screens have a delay from signal input to screen output that is bigger than on most normal CRT televisions/monitors. (There is even a possible further source for delay on some flatscreen TVs. On Nick's 40 inch flatscreen TV, there would be a delay from the signal to the picture due to some kind of format calibration calculations done by the TV.)

3) If I can't find the Commodore 1080 monitor would an old portable television be just as good?

Old portable CRT TVs with Scart plugs should be just fine along with a scart cable for the amiga. If you use the oldfashioned tv-modulater + oldfashioned tv-plug instead, the picture on the screen will be notably less sharp. Did your Amiga come with a scart cable or a tv-modulator (some 10cm rectangular block)?

Two comments:

i) It is possible that the inherent flaws of LCD screens are not really that big in every case. It would depend a lot about the type/quality of the LCD screen. The refresh rate of LCD screens are getting better and better. Bad refresh rates result in a general delay and also "ghost" effects. It's really a parallel issue to the issue of first person shooters on LCD screens.

ii) Instead, a likely (additional) source of the delay you have experienced with your previous setup is somewhere in the WinUAE emulator. I have read many times that the picture/emulation delay is really, really small, but I have experienced something that is just weird. I cannot possibly shoot a totally flat penalty on WinUAE (which is achieved by a very short tap on the firebutton). This seems to indicate that the general joystick to action process is somewhat flawed on my PC setup. The only possible non-PC/WinUAE reason for this could be my adaptor (making 9-pin to 14-pin or whatever).

Two closing comments:

1) A good deal of people are used to small monitors and do not like to play on bigger screens. Others are fine playing on both small and big screens. There is no advantage per se in playing on a small monitor, it is only a question of whether you have experience playing on whatever screen size is put in front of you. (OK, this is the simple view, the advanced view is that our brains may be better hardwired to perceive things and put them in relation when they are located in a smaller/bigger part of our entire field of view.)

2) My general recommendation is to decide on a screen size you are happy with, and then find a tv-monitor of that size that has a good, crisp picture and a scart plug. (And, if is a suitable setup for you, your current LCD screen may just be good enough, maybe try that out first).
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby gdh82 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:48 pm

Glad to hear of your recent ebay purchase too. PM me your address, Andy, and we'll soon have you sorted out! :)
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Logos » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:04 pm

Thanks for your answers Dagh, some interesting points made. :)

dnielsen wrote:My general recommendation is to decide on a screen size you are happy with, and then find a tv-monitor of that size that has a good, crisp picture and a scart plug. (And, if is a suitable setup for you, your current LCD screen may just be good enough, maybe try that out first).


My Amiga 500 came with the TV modulator you described, no Scart cable included, so I'll try to connect it to my LCD TV first. I'll look into getting a Scart cable too. Does this link refer to the LCD input lag you mentioned?

http://www.behardware.com/articles/632- ... t-oui.html
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Logos » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:05 pm

gdh82 wrote:Glad to hear of your recent ebay purchase too. PM me your address, Andy, and we'll soon have you sorted out! :)



Thanks Garry! :D
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby dnielsen » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:49 pm

Logos wrote:Does this link refer to the LCD input lag you mentioned?

http://www.behardware.com/articles/632- ... t-oui.html


Yes, that is it. The article is quite naive though in the sense that the various delay effects of the LCD technique have been described and discussed in depth all over the net many, many times, so it's kinda silly that they test and test but then conclude that they don't know what the reason for the delay is. In short, the reason is that it takes some time for a pixel to change color once it is instructed to do so, with the time depending on the from and to colors. This leads to a general delay and to ghost effects (that is, you move your mouse cursor quickly across the screen and it will seem like there is a ghost behind it).

Human reaction time on visual inputs is about 200ms on average (eye to hand). I would bet that our "timing" precision is very precise, like maybe withing 10-20ms. So it should be clear that there is a noticeable effect when changing from no-delay to, say, 30ms delay. We get used to a big delay when we play online, but as you know, this leads to a much more rough approach where we have to plan our moves in advance and basically have some kind of "dead-time" where we just have to hope that what we planned will be appropriate once our movements register in the system. So we can't make so quick and appropriate adjustments as we could if there was no delay. This in general provokes a more primitive playing style.
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby dnielsen » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:41 pm

From the LCD wiki entry:

LCDs typically have longer response times than their plasma and CRT counterparts, especially older displays, creating visible ghosting when images rapidly change. For example, when moving the mouse quickly on an LCD, multiple cursors can sometimes be seen.

LCDs appear to exhibit motion blur as the human eye follows moving objects, where CRT screens do not. This is because an individual LCD pixel is constantly visible for the entire duration of a frame (typically 16.7ms), whereas a CRT pixel is lit for only a fraction of a microsecond once per frame as the electron beam scans past it. The means that even on a hypothetical LCD panel with a response time of zero, a panning image will appear to have motion blur whereas a panning image on a CRT monitor will not. This is caused by the movement of our eyes during the time the frame is visible.

Some LCD TVs have significant input lag due to slow video processing. If the lag delay is large enough, such displays can be unsuitable for fast and time-precise mouse operations (CAD, FPS gaming) as compared to CRT displays or other LCD panels with negligible amounts of input lag. Some LCD TVs have a "game mode" (the term used by Sony) that reduces both the amount of video processing and the amount of input lag.


I don't understand the explanation of motion blur, but I think we can at least agree that Kick Off is a game where "images rapidly change". :D
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Logos » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:44 pm

dnielsen wrote:but as you know, this leads to a much more rough approach where we have to plan our moves in advance and basically have some kind of "dead-time" where we just have to hope that what we planned will be appropriate once our movements register in the system. So we can't make so quick and appropriate adjustments as we could if there was no delay. This in general provokes a more primitive playing style.


Yes I agree, the greater the online lag the rougher the game. In the past few months, however, online lag seems to be less noticeable for me, with the ping being lower than it used to be from my ISP. This has allowed for some fast and fluid games played with Rayge in which we could pull off all the offline moves instinctively and without delay.

Online play, (with or without lag), is also a valuable resource of training and learning for players such as myself; who do not have any local KO2 opponents.
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby dnielsen » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:11 pm

Logos wrote:Online play, (with or without lag), is also a valuable resource of training and learning for players such as myself; who do not have any local KO2 opponents.


Yes, I agree, I would never have won the WC without my training with you and Rayge. Oh, hold on... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, you are perfectly right, you can practice tactical approaches, and you can get the various moves thoroughly printed into your muscle memory. The thing that online play is not so good for is learning to integrate our moves and decisions with everchanging fine grained (fine grained in time) visual input. For instance, you can't so well base your dribbling decisions on the opponent's movements, while his blocking movements can't so well be based on the most recent movements of the dribbler. So, online, you might say as defender "I think he will go right", while offline, you might say "ok, he went right, I go right".
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Re: How can I get the latest KO2 CV for Amiga?

Postby Logos » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:44 pm

dnielsen wrote:Yes, I agree, I would never have won the WC without my training with you and Rayge. Oh, hold on... :lol: :lol: :lol:


:lol: Well, you are the London International Champ at least!

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