Joysticks

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Kostas O
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Kostas O » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:49 am

Torchiador wrote:I'm not kidding! Alkis told me that you can everything!
SLOT-2 on DS is the port used for plug in like guitar hero (4 digital keys) so I guess that it is possible to do something on that port...

:lol: :lol: Unfortunately not!
I think it will be difficult to hack SLOT 2 (and certainly not by me), unless you hack the guitar hero control (but only 4 keys?).
Also if you use the SLOT 2 for the control how will the game be imported on the DS since all the hacks are done through that port?
Don't really know! Sounds as interesting as difficult...
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:17 am

Simple solution!

Open up the DS and add a 9 pin socket to it, wiring it up to the direction pad and the A button.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:54 am

Kostas O wrote:@ Dagh; Check this out http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4286/beztytuuco8.gif. It might be helpful... if you make anything out of it. I don't!


This table is similar to the table here:

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attrib ... ICK_MODELS

They agree nicely on most parts. All (or most of) the terms are explained here:

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html

I do notice that while the tables disagree on the engage distance of the LS-33, they agree that it has a big throw distance. This seems to depend on the size of the restrictor gate, and I fear that you can simply go "too far" in the diagonals and that this will make some KO2-movements difficult (like quick circle movements, or twitches between up and diagonal). The tables also disagree about whether the LS-33 has reflection/deflection.

The two most popular models are those that you are considering, the Sanwa JLF and the Seimitsu LS-32. Sanwa is used for fighting games, Seimitsu for shooters. My suspicion is that KO2 require joysticks that would be good in both fighters and shooters :lol:. I'm just speculating here, but I could imagine that there is a difference between making quick movements/reactions and making movements of precise lengths. Like, in fighters you may need to HIT many different directions in quick succession, and as fast as possible when relevant, while in shooters it is crucial that you can hold a direction for a precise length in time so that you stop your spaceship where you intend for it to stop (so engage distance and return to center must be very reliable). [Shooters today, that is, "manic" shooters, require movements that are like weaving a path through a curtain of bullet hell]. But, in KO2, you need a bit of everything!?

Check out these videos of Sanwa and Seimitsu joysticks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kmTflt-fMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVNbMXzV ... re=related

Here's a video of how the engage force is measured on a Sanwa JLF. I think the guy who made this video is also the guy responsible for the table you linked to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-3aw8fz ... re=related

Here are a couple of videos of some joystick action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ269Dp6 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkpNI_a ... re=related

Btw, my memory may fail me, but I think the LS-32 was considered the best "all-round" joystick, while the JLF was not suitable for shooters.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:26 pm

This video shows what movements in modern shooters are like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt4f-h7Y ... re=related

There are many bullets, but the hitbox of the spaceship is small.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Abyss » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:13 pm

dnielsen wrote:This video shows what movements in modern shooters are like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt4f-h7Y ... re=related

There are many bullets, but the hitbox of the spaceship is small.


:shock: Even if it is 1-by-1 pixel, it's still inhumanly difficult!

FFS, and I thought I was quite good at vertical shoot-em ups...
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:19 pm

Abyss wrote:Even if it is 1-by-1 pixel
That's not uncommen in a shooter such as this. And yes, they are stupidly difficult but a lot of fun.

Aaaargh, now resisting the urge to go play Ikaruga. Must... do... work... :D.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Abyss » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:26 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
Abyss wrote:Even if it is 1-by-1 pixel
That's not uncommen in a shooter such as this. And yes, they are stupidly difficult but a lot of fun.

Aaaargh, now resisting the urge to go play Ikaruga. Must... do... work... :D.


I remember reading some game programming tips at some point in the past (probably in the Amiga days) - there was this suggestion that the actual collision detection area for the player should always be much less than the sprite's mask, in order to empasize the heroic effect! I loved that tip immediatelly.

Check out Shooters Solitude and Warning Forever by Hikoza (http://www18.big.or.jp/~hikoza/index.html) for some great vertical shoot-em up action on the PC.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Bounty Bob » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:33 pm

Well, it depends on the game of course but yes, it's a sound theory and evident in many classic games, so definitely not a modern theory. See Pacman for example, the ghosts can overlap you by some margin before you die.

The downside of it though, is if the player isn't aware then the game can seem harder than it is. Take that shooter example. Obviously that's the final boss and stupidly difficult, even with the knowledge, but earlier levels can seem too hard too as you move to avoid things that will visibly hit you but not actually do any damage and you can put yourself in more harms way. :D
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:31 pm

Abyss wrote:Check out Shooters Solitude and Warning Forever by Hikoza (http://www18.big.or.jp/~hikoza/index.html) for some great vertical shoot-em up action on the PC.

Thanks! I tried Warning Forever, but I still prefer my MAME games then. I had these in my favorite folder:

Image

Twin Cobra was my love back in the Arcade days. Many of the games in this list are from the end of 90es where the shooter genre was revitalized with the new "manic shooters". My favorites among them are probably DoDonPachi, a classic, and then Dangun Feveron, a really nutty and funny game. I'm not very good at them, but I use them to practice my joystick-control for KO2 :lol:

The more recent Arcade shooters are not yet (if ever) on MAME.

Btw, I can recommend the MAMEUIFX32 GUI for MAME, it has at least one nice feature where you can see screenshots from the games while you browse your lists, but it's been a while since I investigated these things.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Abyss » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:54 pm

dnielsen wrote:
Abyss wrote:Check out Shooters Solitude and Warning Forever by Hikoza (http://www18.big.or.jp/~hikoza/index.html) for some great vertical shoot-em up action on the PC.

Thanks! I tried Warning Forever, but I still prefer my MAME games then. I had these in my favorite folder:

Image

Twin Cobra was my love back in the Arcade days. Many of the games in this list are from the end of 90es where the shooter genre was revitalized with the new "manic shooters". My favorites among them are probably DoDonPachi, a classic, and then Dangun Feveron, a really nutty and funny game. I'm not very good at them, but I use them to practice my joystick-control for KO2 :lol:

The more recent Arcade shooters are not yet (if ever) on MAME.

Btw, I can recommend the MAMEUIFX32 GUI for MAME, it has at least one nice feature where you can see screenshots from the games while you browse your lists, but it's been a while since I investigated these things.


Twin Cobra! I liked it a lot, but I loved Taito's Flying Shark, which is almost the same!

I haven't played much on MAME in the last 3-4 years (Well, I haven't played much on anything in the last 3-4 years but anyway...) but I do remember that even though I love vertical shoot-em ups, most suffer from the different PC screen orientation (unless, of course, you have a cabinet setup!).

I'll try to take a look at DoDonPachi and Dangun Feveron - never heard of them.

Warning Forever is nice in that it provides you only with boss battles and that the bosses evolve almost genetically, according to an evolution plan. And of course the ability to shoot at an angle is implemented very well. It belongs to a group of abstract japanese shoot-em ups, along with other games like rRootage, P47 etc
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:17 am

The one-place-to-go-to-to-rule-them-all for information about Sanwa and Seimitsu joysticks, building information, purchase information, custom made information, etc. etc. seems to be this forum:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/index.php

There are lots of well-ordered stickies, discussions, and link-collections.

Please note that you first need to register at the forum, and then wait for manual accept of your account before you get access to all the goodies, it took something like 48 hours for me before I was cleared.

PS. I tried Flying Shark only on MAME. It is indeed very similar to Twin Cobra! Btw, about the newer generation of manic shooters, many of them do exist also in ports to the PS or PS2, but I think only for the Japanese/Asian market.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:00 am

Just a memory note:

so i built a stick with sanwa parts but find myself not lifting my finger off the button enough when pressing quickly...you barely have to press the button down to get it to register, so i assume i am not letting it up all the way...are Seimitsu buttons any less touchy? i want to be able to keep my stick under 3 inches tall, so no happ


Seimistu buttons should be what you are looking for then. They are indeed, "less touchy".
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Abyss » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:24 am

dnielsen wrote:
PS. I tried Flying Shark only on MAME. It is indeed very similar to Twin Cobra! Btw, about the newer generation of manic shooters, many of them do exist also in ports to the PS or PS2, but I think only for the Japanese/Asian market.


Yes - an amazingly small percentage of the japanese games cataloge for all consoles (except XBOX/XBOX360 of course) reach us in Europe. From frantic shoot-em ups to dating simulations to karaoke collections to manga love stories to hentai dramas (!), the Japanese are just... different.

I think Alex had shown me an interesting article about the different gaming tastes between Japan and Europe/US (Europe and US being also quite different, but not by that much).

Apart from PS/PS2, there are also great shoot-em ups for Saturn and Dreamcast, not to mention the occasional Gamecube classic (like Ikaruga, as BBob pointed out earlier)

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