Joysticks

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Kostas O
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Joysticks

Postby Kostas O » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:05 pm

I want to buy a couple of joysticks for use with the Amiga or even the pc if i buy an I-PAC or something like that (any suggestion is welcome).

I would prefer the japanese ones from Sanwa or Seimitsu (JLW-TM-8 or JLW-UM-8, and LS-32).

Does anyone has ever used them or has any idea how they feel for KO2?
Any other that you might be familiar with?

I have found them at http://www.gremlinsolutions.co.uk.
Do you know them or anyone else that are more reliable or cheaper.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:56 pm

That's a pretty amazing coincidence. I just studied these joysticks last night.

Here are some links for general info and purchase options for especially the Sanwa or Seimitsu joysticks:

http://www.gopodular.com/support_articl ... imitsu.htm
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/introduction.html
http://static.pici.se/pictures/YgwFHeAVR.gif
http://akihabarashop.jp/developments/in ... 42b0c97428
http://www.aiabstore.com/main.sc
http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade.htm (including big forum)
http://www.norrisarcadesticks.com/

I am as curious as you as to whether they would be suitable for Kick Off. I see at least 4 somewhat important abilities for Kick Off joysticks:

1) Ability to make circle movements.
2) Ability to hit diagonals clearly, and preferably, to cancel diagonals clearly (very difficult on all joysticks I have tried). This is relevant for diagonal chips and for diagonal runs where you need to stop'n'run so you can trap the ball before it runs too far.
3) Ability to interrupt and resume a movement quickly (like up-neutral-up). Ability to hit neutral quickly.
4) Ability to "hit" a neighbor-direction ever so briefly (like up - up/left - up). (When it is up/left - up - up/left, it depends on the quickness to neutral).

As far as I can understand, arcade gamers (either fighters or shoot'em uppers) prefer a square restrictor gate which makes it easier to hit diagonals. This, however, make circle movements less easy than octagonal restrictor gates. But people say that circle movements are still quite possible with the common square gates. Some models give you the choice of gate, some don't.

Generally, Sanwas are preferred for fighting games, while Seimitsus are preferred for shooters.

One thing to consider is the spring strength. In Kick Off, you almost always push a direction, so you may not want a very hard spring. On the other hand, you want a spring that quickly cancels to neutral...

Personally, I have been speculating about the Seimitsu LS-33, because it has short engage distance and throw (hopefully resulting in quick movements), and very light springs. It's the smallest model around among these joysticks.

Btw, springs can be modded to your liking, you don't have to use the default strings.

I read that Sanwa push buttons are good for quickly canceling to neutral (another important KO2 attribute).

I read that in the US, the best way to test a Sanwa joystick is to find a Tekken 5 arcade with some trademark red models.

As far as I have read, Sanwas and Seimitsus are generally considered the best joysticks around these days.

Let's find out more!
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Rayge » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:06 pm

I don't know much about the joysticks you are looking for, but I'll add my two cents.

If you're looking for a specific (and rare) joystick, go for ebay.

If you're looking for competition pro joysticks (or think they would be ok for your gaming plans), there are some for sale on this german online store: http://www.vesalia.de/?V02b0f1458504712 ... 479666b225
They are 9pin ( amiga ) or USB , so make sure you pick the good one.

The USB joystick quality is quite poor, for lobbers like us, still, mine survived approximately 1 year.
The 9 pin ones are ok. Not good, not bad.


And what about adapters (from amiga to USB) ?

So far, I've found 2 reliable places to find some.
The most famous one is the stelladaptor that can be found here: http://www.atariage.com/store/index.php ... cts_id=267
It is pretty expensive, but worth it, all people who tried it say it's good. It's also out of stock very often, and for a long time... right now it seems stelladaptors are available. They work with amiga joysticks for sure !

The adaptator I and dnielsen use were bought from a guy who lives in Canada, here's the link. Send him an email first, to know if he will be ok to build one for you. Much cheaper, works very well:
http://www.raphnetshop.com/products/ata ... ory=Gaming (prices in CANADIAN dollars !)


All in all, I recommend you to find the amiga version of the joystick you dream about, and get one of these adapters for occasional gaming on pc.

You can also check out the online sensible soccer community store http://www.sensiblesoccer.de . http://sensiblesoccer.de/marketplace/ I remember them selling parallel printer port adaptors and a few joysticks...


You can also build the cable on your own :D I'll give you the link with the instructions, if you're interested.

Also, maybe you'd be interested by a greekstick ! If so, I suppose Alkis has all the info to help you to get one. (forget that... i should have seen your avatar first ! ) .


Other subjects about joysticks:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15037
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14847
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13480


All the sellers I've mentioned in this message are reliable.

Hope it helps ! At least this info can be a starting point on your quest for joy !
Last edited by Rayge on Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:42 pm

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Re: Joysticks

Postby Steve Camber » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:51 pm

Excellent thread! Keep going :)
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Re: Joysticks

Postby dnielsen » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:13 pm

Steve Camber wrote:Excellent thread! Keep going :)


Steve, I was thinking to ask you: Is there some kind of software assistance for diagonal moves in Kick Off?

Consider this situation: You trap the ball and keep the button pushed. You move diagonally (still keeping the button pushed). Then you attempt to return the stick to center, but keep the player in his diagonal direction. That is, you want the two micro switches to turn off exactly at the same time.

This is possible, and equivalent to making a successful diagonal run-stop-run. Or a diagonal chip. But what is the margin of error with regard to turning off the micro switches at the same time? Is it something like one frame (1/50th of a second)? Or is the margin of error bigger in some way?

The difficulty to do this has annoyed me for almost 20 years. It is due to the 4 micro switch designs. Even today the best joysticks are designed in this way!

Though there are some optical joysticks on the market today also. But then you don't get the springy return from the microswithces, and this probably makes small adjustments more difficult...

So, what are everybody's experience with regard to exiting diagonals cleanly? (I briefly tried Jacob's Greek stick in Copenhagen, and that was no miracle solution for me (but I might have needed some more practice with the joystick).)
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Steve Camber » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:38 pm

I've seen no code to help with diagonals. As far as I know the joystick state is captured at 50Hz, requiring skill to use the diagonals precisely.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby jesper » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:35 pm

Steve Camber wrote:I've seen no code to help with diagonals. As far as I know the joystick state is captured at 50Hz, requiring skill to use the diagonals precisely.

You could make the code on the joystick side! That wouldn't even be "cheating"!
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Kostas O » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:46 pm

Thanx Rayge, I know the solutions you mention but i want to build my own.

Dagh got the idea. You have given some thought into the matter i suppose.
After making my own scart cable i want to try with a joystick that will be more soft than my trusty Tomahawk but presicious like my old CMS that failed me during the WC.
I will probably go for a Sanwa JLF-TP-8YT and a Seimitsu LS-32 and see how they feel.
Nobody seems to understand KO needs outside the KOA. I will take a walk in the Sensible World to see if anyone has tried them.
Dagh keep me posted on your thought and attempts on this.
By the way great question about the timing in the code. Unfortunately it seems like it just requires tons of precision and a good stick.
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Torchiador » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:17 pm

Hi Kostas, about Joystick, to you think that you can build a Joystick converter for Nintendo DS? Perhaps using the DS's SLOT-2 I'd like to play KO2 on DS :) I'm quite sure that Steve is good enough to make the KO2CV porting for DS... but we need the joystick!
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Kostas O » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:18 pm

I am so clueless about the DS that i don't even understand if you are kidding or not. Does it support digital control if any at all?

@ Dagh; Check this out http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4286/beztytuuco8.gif. It might be helpful... if you make anything out of it. I don't!
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Re: Joysticks

Postby Torchiador » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:09 am

I'm not kidding! Alkis told me that you can everything!
SLOT-2 on DS is the port used for plug in like guitar hero (4 digital keys) so I guess that it is possible to do something on that port...
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Re: Joysticks

Postby alkis21 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:11 am

Actually, I said George can do everything. :)
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