Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

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hogstrom
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby hogstrom » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:00 am

When i partipicated in Newent last month the two slides were turned off, wich i had no problem with. On the first point, I actually appreciates when my players do not jump or slide, all of a sudden. The slide that occures when opposition try to lock the ball when my player is too close, is (imo) something that easily can be left out in smaller tournaments, but not ideally left out in a world cup.

- Why? Well, I would guess that about half of the players that will turn up in Greece next month have never played kickoff2 with the two slides turned off. Thus the way of defending would be changed drasticly for them.

Remember, Gianni have asked two times about the voting and if slides will be turned on or off. This so he can prepare for defending/attacking correcty after these sliding settings. If that slide is turned off in Athens, I belive a few players would be very surpriced if opposition would be able to lock the ball when opposition player is shoulder vs shoulder to his defender.

If you ask me, when a player intend to have some practice before a world cup in kickoff2, then the old disks from 1990 should always be sufficent.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby gdh82 » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:25 am

hogstrom wrote:When i partipicated in Newent last month the two slides were turned off, wich i had no problem with. On the first point, I actually appreciates when my players do not jump or slide, all of a sudden. The slide that occures when opposition try to lock the ball when my player is too close, is (imo) something that easily can be left out in smaller tournaments, but not ideally left out in a world cup.


Thanks John - appreciate your constructive comments.

Just so no one is mistaken about the intentions of this thread though - it has nothing to do with WC settings. This thread is genuine attempt from myself, Steve E and Simon K to find common ground with a group of UK players who we've hardly played this year. No crusade, no campaign, no hidden agenda.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby Freshmaker » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:01 am

hogstrom wrote:If you ask me, when a player intend to have some practice before a world cup in kickoff2, then the old disks from 1990 should always be sufficent.


Didn't feel like posting in this thread until I read this from John. Thanks John. Perfectly said. Agreed.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby hogstrom » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:31 am

I understand Garry, I just thought about this potential problem (that not everyone have access to updated disks) when dealing with the sliding issues. Actually, I do belive we did use the same settings (both slides removed) as we did in Newent, also in Denmark last month!

I fully understand you hesitate to write something about this delicate matter, Jorn. One better watch what one write carefully, considering how some threads about issues like this one :arg: tend to turn out like ;)
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby Robert Swift » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:07 am

Personally, on something as trivial as slides, I am happy to play with either setting and will respect what the host prefers.

This isn't the same as suggesting that hosts should impose settings on attendees, but it seems reasonable that attendees shouldn't be imposing settings on hosts.

I discussed this with BBob the other night and his resistance is very much rooted in the slippery slope argument. Because we're worried about the possibility of changes X,Y and Z then we oppose change A on principle, even though change A is pretty minor, because it takes us one step closer to a world in which we may fight over changing X,Y,Z.

The slippery slope argument is one where you don't have confidence in people. It's the same argument about preventing stem cell research to fight cancer and cure paralysed people; if we allow doctors to mess with stuff in this way, how long before we end up with 'spare part humans' being grown in an underground facility like in THE ISLAND.

I don't believe you can live your life according to scare tactics, i.e. Tony Blair says we have to invade Iraq or Saddam will nuke Slough.

Having said this, if we simply oppose all changes to gameplay whatever they are, then it does make things a lot simpler.

I've played with unintended slides since 1990 and have always considered them a bug (i.e. poor detection logic). However they are no less a bug than lob goals. Why can't the keeper touch the ball above chest height ffs? So we do have to ask ourselves where we want to go with this. If Beard + Camber can explain how U-slides are a bug and lob goals are not, it will defeat the slippery slope argument.

Autos have always been in as well and are not a bug - they are a function of the Aggression stat of each player. Whether they are desirable is another matter, but I put up with them until now.

Overall this is a much smaller issue than PBD/NOPBD and it really shouldn't be causing any split.

As for events like the London International (if I organize one) I think that my solution will be to ask Mark Bishop if he wishes to come and, if so, we can use 'World Cup settings'. If not, then I'm open to slide-removal as long as it doesn't affect attendance.

Let's not overstate the importance of this issue, it's not a major gameplay feature and is more a matter of principle/philosophy. By the way Mark, the idea that the presence of slides is actually beneficial to your enjoyment of the game is one that's difficult to grasp. I can accept a lot more that you're happy with gameplay as it is and see no need to tinker.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby Bounty Bob » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:33 am

Robert Swift wrote:I discussed this with BBob the other night and his resistance is very much rooted in the slippery slope argument. Because we're worried about the possibility of changes X,Y and Z then we oppose change A on principle, even though change A is pretty minor, because it takes us one step closer to a world in which we may fight over changing X,Y,Z.
The slippery slope is a big part of it for me but it's not the main reason. But anyway...

The London international, (if you organise it), should not have settings dictated by whether or not I plan to attend. I'd rather not attend and let everyone else play without slides than attend and have everyone moaning all day. :D
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby Abyss » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:41 am

Robert Swift wrote: If Beard + Camber can explain how U-slides are a bug and lob goals are not, it will defeat the slippery slope argument.


Jimbo can't explain anything, we know that :)

As for Steve, I do remember that he defined a bug as something that playtesters will report and require to be changed, in the way a modern game is produced. Personally - I don't agree - a flawed design decision is not a bug in my book - whereas something that makes the game crash or has a clearly unintended effect (like players returning in the line-up after being sent-off) is a bug.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby Robert Swift » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:11 am

I think that, whether you're playing a sports game, a beat-em up, RTS or FPS, the same applies. Your avatar, whether it's a footballer, kickboxer, battleship or terrorist should be under your control. It's your control plus the tactics that you employ that result in success/failure.

I would therefore define anything that is a flaw in that control as a bug. For example, let's say you are playing an RTS. Most RTS now have a common feature that, if you double click a particular unit, all units of that type on the screen are selected. Now let's say that you are playing an RTS and, for some reason, you double click and 1 time out of every 10, instead of selecting all units of that type on the screen, it selects half of them. That's a bug. Or let's say you're playing Tekken. If you press R,R,L2 and Up then you get Spinning Dragon Headbutt of the Wind. The problem is that pressing R and L2 at the same time causes you to do a back flip. What this means is that 8 times of of 10, when you attempt Spinning Dragon Headbutt you get an unintended back flip. This, for me, is a bug. And so...you could be playing counterstrike and, in order to shout "Follow me" you have to Press x followed by 2. However 2 is also the button you press to drop your weapon. Because of the way the game is programmed, shouts don't work in certain situations and you end up pressing X, 2 and just dropping your weapon.

I think you get the point.

Unintended slide for me is a bug. It's an interference with the basic principle that, whatever game you're playing, you're in control, and that your control + the tactics you use = success or failure.

Autsoslides, however, are not a bug. They are AI behaviour. Plenty of games have AI behaviour. In KO2 the keeper is AI controlled. In MTW if your unit of 200 peasants is hit by a cannon and 50 die, they will rout. In C&C, if an enemy unit walks in range of your units they will open fire on it. Depending on their stance they may chase it off the screen.

Anyhow..... if we're talking in PRINCIPLE, I believe that there is a difference between

Unintended Slides (Control Bug)
Auto Slides (dumb AI)

If you take Auto Slides out, you're onto a slippery slope of altering keeper behaviour, making him save lobs, not go on Bruce-Grobelaar style runs across the box, not go behind his line etc. This IS a slippery slope. But it ought to be possible to remove the Unintended Slide Bug, if we agree it is a bug, rather than these other things that are features. Many bugs have been removed from KO2 without us being on a slippery slope.

Take out U-slides and leave autos in would be my suggested compromise for general purpose UK usage. We don't need buggy control but we should also avoid entering the slippery slope of AI changes.

I wish we could separate these issues a lot more. U-slides for me is like PBD/NOPBD. It's an interface issue. Autoslides are akin to switching, straight shooting and keeper behaviour which are either related to player stats or AI. There is a HUGE difference.

Arguments for and against one shouldn't be used for and against the other. One of the biggest problems for me is that there only seems to be the option of having both or neither.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby jesper » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:26 am

Abyss wrote:As for Steve, I do remember that he defined a bug as something that playtesters will report and require to be changed, in the way a modern game is produced. Personally - I don't agree - a flawed design decision is not a bug in my book - whereas something that makes the game crash or has a clearly unintended effect (like players returning in the line-up after being sent-off) is a bug.


The Jargon-File defines a bug as follows:

bug: n.

An unwanted and unintended property of a program or piece of hardware, esp. one that causes it to malfunction. Antonym of feature. Examples: “There's a bug in the editor: it writes things out backwards.” “The system crashed because of a hardware bug.” “Fred is a winner, but he has a few bugs” (i.e., Fred is a good guy, but he has a few personality problems).


By that definition PBD is a bug as well (at least retrospectively although Dino might have a few bugs himself).
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby alkis21 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:33 am

Obviously my opinion should not matter in UK tournaments. But if anyone cares to know, let me explain why I voted 'NO' in the poll:

I agree with Robert that Autoslides & Unindented slides are two very different issues.

Semantics do not interest me. I don't care if we call something a feature, a bug, or Cornelius Beaver. It does not influence my decision.

After years and years of playing Kick Off 2, I am able to avoid unindented slides 9 times out of 10, perhaps even more often than that. Some of my opponents, even some of the good ones who have the potential to beat me unless I'm playing my best, are not that good in this aspect. When they are running with the ball if I cannot catch them I always try to run right behind them, so that they can't trap the ball without sliding. Many are not aware of this during the heat of the game so they fall for it. Sometimes I even tap the button knowing perfectly well that my player will slide while in possession of the ball.

So the way I see it, this 'thing' (feature, bug, whatever) gives me an advantage over players who have not mastered it. Now, why would I want to disable unindented slides and deprive myself of this advantage?
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby gdh82 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:37 am

Robert Swift wrote:Unintended Slides (Control Bug)
Auto Slides (dumb AI)


I agree too with this. Did Dino intend a player to slidetackle for the ball when he's in possession of it already ? I doubt it somehow.

Robert Swift wrote:If you take Auto Slides out, you're onto a slippery slope of altering keeper behaviour, making him save lobs, not go on Bruce-Grobelaar style runs across the box, not go behind his line etc. This IS a slippery slope.


I disagree with this however for one simple reason. There seems to me to be a KOA consensus, which I fully accept, that goals cannot be touched at all. This also extends to non-goals too, as I learnt a while back. :)

The consensus itself avoids the slippery slope argument. Besides imo the significance of playing without autoslides is minor compared to the removal of certain kinds of goals. The two are of a different scale entirely as I see it.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby gdh82 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:49 am

alkis21 wrote:So the way I see it, this 'thing' (feature, bug, whatever) gives me an advantage over players who have not mastered it. Now, why would I want to disable unindented slides and deprive myself of this advantage?


I fully accept that self-interest is a very strong argument.

The one thing I would suggest is your elite defensive skills would not be lost when playing with the 'bug' fixed. You'd no doubt find that an opponent who traps the ball under pressure is often easily dispossessed anyway. The difference is that the possession is won through gameplay and not through the unintended slidetackle 'bug' causing the ball to go out of play. These and other points are discussed more fully here.
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Re: Bridging the Autoslide Divide in the UK ?

Postby jesper » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:54 am

alkis21 wrote:Semantics do not interest me.

Then stop talking and start writing parsers!! :)

Sorry about mentioning Dino. Any argument involving or speculating about Dino's intend is invalid. Dino is not God, Steve is.
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