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The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:25 pm
by gdh82
Whereever you stand in the debate, please put those custard pies down! :yikes:


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AUTOSLIDES = AI generated slides/headers

UNINTENDED SLIDE 'BUG' = Button press that is wrongly interpreted by the code as a slide tackle when the intention is to 'trap the ball'.


To compliment and complete the Autoslide Debate, I bring you her ugly sister- the "Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix" Debate! As before this thread is not about promoting my own views but about promoting debate...think of it as a once-and-for-all, definitive guide to KOA opinion on....

Pros and Cons of Fixing the Unintended Slide Bug (USB)

PROS
1. Why slidetackle for the ball when you've already got it! Its a bug ffs!!.
2. Enhances gameplay by allowing for more possibilites.


CONS
1. With experience you can play around the USB
2. Fixing this bug is a disadvantage to those that exploit it.
3. Part of slippery-slope of changing gameplay - won't be KO2 anymore


If you've nothing to add to this thread, then don't. If you feel your views on the pros/cons of fixing the unintended slide bug are not represented, your considered thoughts would be appreciated. This thread will be strictly moderated.

This thread is NOT for discussion of autoslides but if you're unsure of the difference between these two slides, watch this....


Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:26 pm
by gdh82
alkis21 wrote:There are some people in the KOA who have totally mastered the skill of trapping the ball without sliding, even when the ball is in the opponent's possession. I'm not one of them, but I wouldn't want them to lose the advantage that obviously took them years to master.


Tripod wrote: It's true that it's just part of the game that you aren't able to trap the ball if the opponent touched it. For me the game is too fast to look down and check and it seems generally the game is a bit dodgy when it comes to touching the ball (how many surprising corners have you seen?).


hogstrom wrote: Me and Panayotis agreed a few weeks ago when discussing this, that the "auto-slide bug 2" is very much a part of the game and that most experienced players do not try to lock the ball when they should not try to do it.

The so called "second autoslide bug 2" is very much a part of my own defensive game, I do not how many times i did run exactly beside the opposing player last weekend and by that taking away any possibility for the attacking player to lock the ball.


Panayotis7 wrote:i am talking of course about the "bug", which is an essential tool of defence for several top players (like john mentioned) but also a weapon for those few that have the skill to avoid it (because it CAN be avoided)... just because there are ppl that cannot master it doesn't mean it has to be voted out...


Steve1977 wrote:Take the unintended slide bug.... this bug activates to take away the very thing we like to watch...skill. I'v seen some cracking goals scored where the ball has been crossed into the area and with the goalkeeper millimeters away, the striker has trapped it instantly, moved to the side and slotted it into the empty net. Sure, there are ways to get around this bug, but in this instance it would be absolutely impossible to score.


Steve Camber wrote:The main annoyance of the unintended slide bug happens when there is no opponent nearby, just your player and the ball. You go to trap the loose ball and your player slides. KO2 without this annoyance is a more enjoyable experience for me, especially when combined with Amiga controlled teammates who don't throw themselves on the floor at critical moments.


dnielsen wrote: I have grown used to sometimes having to dribble-touch the ball before I can think about trapping it. The necessity of this affects gameplay


JamesHBeard wrote:So let me get this right then.. You are saying that if no opponents are near the ball and you press fire.. it's correct and expected for the player to do a slide, instead of trapping the ball ? :?:

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:27 pm
by gdh82
Together with the quotes above, I put my views forward merely as a starting point. I want to start a discussion, not a forum fight ffs!!!!!! :roll:

PROS
1. Why slidetackle for the ball when you've already got it! Its a bug ffs!!
More than just an annoyance, for me this "bug" detracts from the greatest virtue of the game - its expansive and depth of gameplay. Whether I've got the ball in space (after an opponent has last touched it) or if I haven't, were it not for buggy code I would be able to trap the ball. Enuff said.

2. Enhances gameplay by allowing for more possibilites.
Invariably when the USB occurs it leads to the the ball going out of play. By contrast, with the bug fixed, these interruptions are avoided, and play continues. This allows for more possibilities in gameplay. The player on the ball may still be dispossessed when faced with some tight defending, or the player may be able to trap and wrong-foot the opponent. Either way, the gameplay possibilites are increased, rather than closed down, which is a huge plus imo.


CONS
1. With experience you can play around the USB
I agree that that this bug can be played around but this is missing the point a little and restricts gameplay possibilites imo. Being able to only trap the ball in one movement when an opponent is nearby just seems narrow to me. Likewise, there is not always the time and space to touch the ball before trapping. Both types of situation diminish KO2 gameplay imo.

2. Fixing this bug is a disadvantage to those that exploit it.
This is the crunch issue imo, one for tournament organisers to grapple with and handle responsibly. I completely see where players are coming from when stating that the exploitation of this bug is part of defensive gameplay. I'd nevertheless ask you to bear the following in mind.

Having played both with and without the USB, I must point out that with the bug fixed, good defensive skills are not lost, as a player who traps the ball under pressure can often be dispossessed quite easily. So from this point of view, there is no significant disadvange to fear .

I too know how to trigger my unsuspecting opponent into a slidetackle when they intend to trap the ball. I may not be as good as others at it, but it isn’t hugely difficult. Having said that, I also now know how the throw-in and corner switching bugs work – if I adapt my gameplay so to steal corners and throw-ins from my opponent, would this be a argument for keeping these bugs in ? Would this be sporting ?


3. Part of slippery-slope of changing gameplay - won't be KO2 anymore
Of course taken to its logical extreme, careless and unconsidered gameplay changes are clearly a bad thing. I don't want that either. And of course one change in gameplay doesn't automatically justify another. Again, I'm not saying that either. What I do disagree with is the fantasy that by not fixing the unintended slide bug, we will somehow have preserved the KO2 from yesteryear. As I have said before this is absurd - A=B and PBD mix already mean that KO2CV is not the game we all grew up with! That's a matter of fact not opinion.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:46 pm
by Steve1977
Great that we finally have a conclusion in sight due to these threads Gaz. (Although as I'll say many times during this post, I don't see an issue with small tweaks depending on who's hosting) I would have thought that it's helping Alkis as well in his plans for the World Cup too.

After the fantastic UK Champs with Autoslides and the bug removed, I was closed minded in wanting those settings to be used for all tournaments and was suprised when others wanted the bug and slides back in. Infact, I was more baffeled by the bug staying in.

BUT...after reading peoples well thought out posts it's opened my mind I have to say.

Whilst the Autoslide bug is just that...it is possible to know when it's going to happen. In the heat of the battle you may forget how to get around it but due to the nature of it occuring, it can potentially affect both teams in the course of a game (probably a few times each).

Ideally I think the game works better with them out, but I can see why people would want them included. Which is basically me saying I don't care either way if they'r included or not (although I feel the same way about auto slides...it's the hosts perogative to have them out and it's a regional change that dramatically improves the game but if the fix is taken out so they occur once again, it's still the same game.)

Infact, I'd probably go as far as saying that autoslides are more of a bug than the 'autoslide bug' because at least with the 'autoslide bug' you know when it's going to happen and can work around it. As BountyBob said, it could be that two players are neck and neck with each other and one out muscles the other (if it was a KORA tournament) and if it was a KOBRA tournament those same two players stand on their feet because they have better studs. A small regional tweak like Brazillians playing in England. The game in itself is the same it's just something to get used to when travelling somewhere and playing outside your comfort zone.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:06 pm
by dnielsen
Are the precise changes to the trap/slide mechanism in the "unintended slide bug fix" described somewhere?

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:17 pm
by gdh82
dnielsen wrote:Are the precise changes to the trap/slide mechanism in the "unintended slide bug fix" described somewhere?


I don't know of any descriptions of the fix, but John W wrote this fine explanation of the Slide Tackle Logic.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:23 pm
by dnielsen
gdh82 wrote:
dnielsen wrote:Are the precise changes to the trap/slide mechanism in the "unintended slide bug fix" described somewhere?


I don't know of any descriptions of the fix, but John W wrote this fine explanation of the Slide Tackle Logic.


Yes, I had this great little treatise in mind. I wonder what Steve Camber exactly did in order to effectuate a "fix"?

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:37 pm
by Steve Camber
dnielsen wrote:Yes, I had this great little treatise in mind. I wonder what Steve Camber exactly did in order to effectuate a "fix"?

Here's the fix.

At the point in the code where a human controlled player is about to start a slide tackle I have inserted an extra sanity check, which does two tests:

#1 If there is no member of the other team that is nearer the ball than you are, then abort the slide.
Why slide if there is no opponent between you and the ball?

#2 If you have been holding the fire button for more than 5 frames then abort the slide.
The fire button has been pressed for a while now, surely a trap is being requested instead of a slide.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:26 pm
by Bounty Bob
Steve Camber wrote:#1 If there is no member of the other team that is nearer the ball than you are, then abort the slide.
Why slide if there is no opponent between you and the ball?
How would this affect if you wanted to slide on a loose ball in the penalty box to poke it into the goal? I'm sure I've scored by sliding and poking the ball past the goal keeper. Maybe the defender was between the ball and my man? But I would think it more likely that they were pressing on my shoulder.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:07 am
by gdh82
Bounty Bob wrote:How would this affect if you wanted to slide on a loose ball in the penalty box to poke it into the goal? I'm sure I've scored by sliding and poking the ball past the goal keeper. Maybe the defender was between the ball and my man? But I would think it more likely that they were pressing on my shoulder.


Good question Bbob. Imo this 'slide goal' (which I've scored on rare occasions too) is only possible (a) if your opponent has possession and you slide through them, (b) you go to trap/shoot a ball that in crossing got a faintest of touches off the defender, or (c) your opponent is sufficiently close by to cause a button press to be misinterpreted as a slide.

I believe with this fix that slide goals would still be possible for (a) but not (b) or (c). Incidentally I remember Gianni suggesting we should be possible to have slide goals more intentionally but that's another gameplay debate.....

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:33 am
by gdh82
hogstrom wrote:But if we talk about the other autoslide (slide that occures when opponent is too close for one to be able to trap the ball) I would like it to stay in the game. If we would change the game in a way by remove this autoslide, it would mean that some players would gain more than others from such a change. Defensivewise, a few that cant handle this autoslide will indeed be helped by a removal of this, others that is able to handle it without larger problems will (if this removed) have learned this for nothing.

Attackingwise a few of us have a gamestyle that often triggers that autoslide, simply because they use the trap-mecanism more often than others. These would be helped by a removal of this.

Im fairly good at avoiding the autoslide when opposition player is too close, but in some specific situations i often have opposition player close and it would indeed be beneficial for my attack if I always is able to trap the ball in these situations. Thus by removing that kind of autoslide It would be positive for my attack be getting rid of this.

Defensivewise I know the autoslide well, in defence during match I try to get as close to my opponent as possible, in purpose to destroy their "trap-play". I find this quite effective, especially vs "trap-specialists". Thus in defence I would lose by this potentially removed.

Im sure the win/lose situation is different for all of us, some would gain a lot while others would gain very little. Do we want this?


Excellent post, John, describing the winners and losers of the USB fix.

As I've said above just how much would you tight defensive play really lose ? I wonder if the loss is not nearly as great as you imagine? Even if the player is able to trap, there is still the opportunity to dispossess them - and maybe even do so more fairly imo ?

Imo fixing this bug is unlikely to have any impact on the rankings at all.. The best players will still apply their quick thinking and lightening reactions, which ultimately will prevail. For me, my motivation for seeking this change isn't that it takes something away from the experienced players, I prefer to think of it as offering more gameplay possibilites for all players.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:16 am
by Stainy
3. Part of slippery-slope of changing gameplay - won't be KO2 anymore
Of course taken to its logical extreme, careless and unconsidered gameplay changes are clearly a bad thing. I don't want that either. And of course one change in gameplay doesn't automatically justify another. Again, I'm not saying that either. What I do disagree with is the fantasy that by not fixing the unintended slide bug, we will somehow have preserved the KO2 from yesteryear. As I have said before this is absurd - A=B and PBD mix already mean that KO2CV is not the game we all grew up with! That's a matter of fact not opinion.


You can`t use this in your argument.. I thought this was put in to help with tornament schedules.. not having to play two games ( once we found out that team A is 10% better than team B ) team A advantage isn`t a bug... a bug wasn`t fixed..
It saves playing twice.. home and away. Personally I liked the home away games... but I understand A=B.

Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:33 am
by gdh82
Stainy wrote:You can`t use this in your argument.. I thought this was put in to help with tornament schedules.. not having to play two games ( once we found out that team A is 10% better than team B ) team A advantage isn`t a bug... a bug wasn`t fixed..
It saves playing twice.. home and away. Personally I liked the home away games... but I understand A=B.


I agree with what you'er saying, Stainy but my point is different. Yes, A=B had practical tournament advantages but it is also a change in gameplay. Some people seem to say certain matters (such as the unintended slide bug) shouldn't even be discussed let alone changed because this would involve a change in gameplay, meaning we would no longer be playing the game we grew up with. I'm just stating that this point was passed long before my time here.

I understand, however, where someone argues for no further changes in gameplay but this is a different argument.

PS Good to see you taking part rather than jeering from the sidelines, Stainy ;) 8)