The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

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Stainy
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Stainy » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:47 am

yes it`s a gameplay change, but it doesn`t directly effect your gameplay..

Practical for tornaments yes... but this is a major change!! nothing more nothing less..
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Bounty Bob » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:10 pm

gdh82 wrote:Some people seem to say certain matters (such as the unintended slide bug) shouldn't even be discussed let alone changed because this would involve a change in gameplay, meaning we would no longer be playing the game we grew up with. I'm just stating that this point was passed long before my time here.
Some people seem to say that it shouldn't be changed because it's a further change in gameplay past that which benefits being able to play more games in a competition and have matches on equal terms. I don't think that anyone is saying the game should never have been changed to A=B and PBD mix. I don't think the point was passed as far as you think it was though.

gdh82 wrote:I understand, however, where someone argues for no further changes in gameplay but this is a different argument.
Oh hang on, you get that point. Who do you think is saying nothing should be chaged and we should go backwards to A>b and pbd being chosen by team B? I don't recall seeing anyone posting anything to suggest that A=B and PBD mix are bad.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby gdh82 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:06 pm

Stainy wrote:yes it`s a gameplay change, but it [A=B] doesn`t directly effect your gameplay..


Darren, the A=B enhancement profoundly affects gameplay! The fact that gameplay has already been changed within KO2CV was the whole point of the moving the debate forward thread in which I posted this last week....

gdh82 wrote:The biggest single change in KO2CV imo is the A=B enhancement. This changes every shot, every player collision, every application of player attribute - EVERY ASPECT OF GAMEPLAY. Accepting the change that is A=B and the obvious advantages it brings, is an acceptance that gameplay can be changed!!!!!!


Please don't make me say this anymore!
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby hogstrom » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:11 pm

gdh82 wrote:Excellent post, John, describing the winners and losers of the USB fix.

As I've said above just how much would you tight defensive play really lose ? I wonder if the loss is not nearly as great as you imagine? Even if the player is able to trap, there is still the opportunity to dispossess them - and maybe even do so more fairly imo ?

Imo fixing this bug is unlikely to have any impact on the rankings at all.. The best players will still apply their quick thinking and lightening reactions, which ultimately will prevail. For me, my motivation for seeking this change isn't that it takes something away from the experienced players, I prefer to think of it as offering more gameplay possibilites for all players.



- Tnx Garry ;)

To answer your question, Im unsure about how this potential removal will have influence on my defence, I guess I will be ok against most opponents. Im unsure how much others players would gain attacking-wise, if this slide would be removed. Im certaine some will gain more than others.

If i look at my own attack, Im sure that my blc will be more difficult to defend against. Running side by side with my winger wont help you if this was removed. With this in mind, Im sure that my attack would be more boosted than I would lose in my defence. Im certaine I´ll score more goals if this was removed, likely leak a little more as well. Again, Im very unsure how other players would be affected by this really.

I guess that with less sliding we can likely conclude that with this removed we will have more goals scored in ko2-matches? Good or bad?
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby gdh82 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:26 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:Some people seem to say that it shouldn't be changed because it's a further change in gameplay past that which benefits being able to play more games in a competition and have matches on equal terms.


I understand the position very well but this seems different to yours. You seem to be against the idea of even discussing certain matters (e.g autoslides) on the basis that it is a change in gameplay, and you've even seemed to want to deny people a vote on such things:

Bounty Bob wrote:I don't even know why autoslides are being discussed. Fixing bugs is one thing, but auto slides definitely are not a bug.


Bounty Bob wrote:So in summary my view is that auto slides shouldn't be voted on as it's a fundamental change in the ai working. It's a slippery slope.


If you now agree that we can discuss gameplay issues and that people should be able to vote where hosts decide, then great - that's progress.

Bounty Bob wrote:I don't think that anyone is saying the game should never have been changed to A=B and PBD mix.

Agreed
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby gdh82 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:36 pm

hogstrom wrote:To answer your question, Im unsure about how this potential removal will have influence on my defence, I guess I will be ok against most opponents. Im unsure how much others players would gain attacking-wise, if this slide would be removed. Im certaine some will gain more than others.

If i look at my own attack, Im sure that my blc will be more difficult to defend against. Running side by side with my winger wont help you if this was removed. With this in mind, Im sure that my attack would be more boosted than I would lose in my defence. Im certaine I´ll score more goals if this was removed, likely leak a little more as well. Again, Im very unsure how other players would be affected by this really.

I guess that with less sliding we can likely conclude that with this removed we will have more goals scored in ko2-matches? Good or bad?


Thanks again for your comments, John. I'd welcome contributions from other top players too 8)

That's another very good question about whether there would be more goals or not. Very difficult to answer too! My gut instinct, for what is worth, is that it would be pretty much the same. It would definately allow gameplay to continue. (which is a huge positive in itself). On the one hand, needless throw-ins/corners/goal kicks would be avoided which could reduce goals, but on the other, allowing gameplay to continue might allow for other goals to be created anyway.

Certain questions will be almost impossible to answer in theory, say that's why I'd encourage you and others to try out the KO2CV menu options for yourself...
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Torchiador » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:14 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:Oh hang on, you get that point. Who do you think is saying nothing should be chaged and we should go backwards to A>b and pbd being chosen by team B? I don't recall seeing anyone posting anything to suggest that A=B and PBD mix are bad.

Gianluca and Nikos had very good argumentations about it and we had a pair of -=KOA WARS=-
For sure, who manage better the advantage/disadvantage of A>B lost his skills with A=B. at the same way that Gianluca didn't want to lose his advantage, now John and many players don't want to lose their advantage into manage the USB.
But the 2 matters are different: the change to A=B was to finally have 2 equal teams face off each other so finally a real fight in equal terms.
Not this second case. in this case we are speaking about a change of the game play because of our tastes and our sensation about the gameplay. this isn't a so strong motive.
So I can understand reasons like "without it I lose my advantages and I don't want to play without it" but I can't' listen to the words like "it is part of the original game".
Probably USB removed make the game clear and more enjoyable but I think that, removing it from the game, we remove something from the complexity of the gameplay making things easy for who is not so good into do it.
Anyway, I think that we are speaking of a minor issue: I mean that we are speaking of USB. Please count me how many times they happen in a game. How many potential situations unintended slides due to close defender? 2? 3?
So in my opinion, to say:"I don't come to tournaments without US disabled" or :"I don't come to tournaments without US enables"it is simply a smoking ______.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby hogstrom » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:36 pm

Torchiador wrote: now John and many players don't want to lose their advantage into manage the USB.


Think again, Gianni. Im speaking in favour for keeping these slides in the game, thus im AGAINST strenghten my attack (blc). So, im defenitely not speaking for myself here and is NOT interested in keeping/gaining advantage. It is not fair by you saying this. If I had in mind to do that, I would just stay out of this discussion, or even better - try my best to help removing these.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Bounty Bob » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:03 pm

gdh82 wrote:I understand the position very well but this seems different to yours. You seem to be against the idea of even discussing certain matters (e.g autoslides) on the basis that it is a change in gameplay, and you've even seemed to want to deny people a vote on such things:
I am against the idea of further gameplay changes. I also don't think that they should be considered for voting because I think they are a change too far. But I'll say it again... It's only my opinion, I'm not saying that a vote shouldn't happen just that I think it's wrong. You said yourself that you understood the argument for, 'no further changes', that's what I'm arguing for.
Last edited by Bounty Bob on Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Bounty Bob » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:05 pm

Torchiador wrote:Gianluca and Nikos had very good argumentations about it and we had a pair of -=KOA WARS=-
I wasn't talking about back then, I just meant recently.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Torchiador » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:41 pm

John, don't get me wrong, I made your name because in the beginning of this debate you seemed completely against the bugfix.
Your point is clear.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby Abyss » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:36 am

Torchiador wrote:I mean that we are speaking of USB. Please count me how many times they happen in a game. How many potential situations unintended slides due to close defender? 2? 3?


According to some people, these happen about 100 times per game.
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Re: The 'Activating the Unintended Slide Bug Fix' Debate Thread

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:36 am

Bounty Bob wrote:You said yourself that you understood the argument for, 'no further changes', that's what I'm arguing for.


Gotcha Bbob - glad we've reached this understanding, and glad you're accepting of the fact that others should be able to discuss and vote on such issues. :) Should save us both quite a bit of posting! ;)
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