The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Stainy » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:16 am

gdh: close this thread!
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:26 am

Stainy wrote:gdh: close this thread!


stainy - if you must, close your eyes to this debate mate! :)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby hogstrom » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:57 am

- Steve, if you deactivate the autoslides I cant see anything else than that we would have the same game but possible improved (this is my opinion) at least i we talking about the auotslide that occures when you´re not neccesarily in the gameroom. After weeks of thinking I would support a removal of this.

But if we talk about the other autoslide (slide that occures when opponent is too close for one to be able to trap the ball) I would like it to stay in the game. If we would change the game in a way by remove this autoslide, it would mean that some players would gain more than others from such a change. Defensivewise, a few that cant handle this autoslide will indeed be helped by a removal of this, others that is able to handle it without larger problems will (if this removed) have learned this for nothing.

Attackingwise a few of us have a gamestyle that often triggers that autoslide, simply because they use the trap-mecanism more often than others. These would be helped by a removal of this.

Im fairly good at avoiding the autoslide when opposition player is too close, but in some specific situations i often have opposition player close and it would indeed be beneficial for my attack if I always is able to trap the ball in these situations. Thus by removing that kind of autoslide It would be positive for my attack be getting rid of this.

Defensivewise I know the autoslide well, in defence during match I try to get as close to my opponent as possible, in purpose to destroy their "trap-play". I find this quite effective, especially vs "trap-specialists". Thus in defence I would lose by this potentially removed.

Im sure the win/lose situation is different for all of us, some would gain a lot while others would gain very little. Do we want this?
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Steve1977 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:45 pm

What's your feelings on Autoslides taken out Stainy?
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:24 pm

hogstrom wrote:- Steve, if you deactivate the autoslides I cant see anything else than that we would have the same game but possible improved (this is my opinion) at least i we talking about the auotslide that occures when you´re not neccesarily in the gameroom. After weeks of thinking I would support a removal of this.


Thanks for your considered thoughts, John. This is exactly the kind of post I hoped to see here. Disagreements don't have to turn into disputes. In discussing our different points of view, I may well come to another conclusion on the second type of autoslide!

I'd strongly suggest, however, we dont' discuss the unintended slide 'bug' (as I call it) in this thread simply so this thread can keep its focus, and possibly become a definitive koa guide to autoslides. I shall start a separate thread on it, instead.

I agree the the unintended slide 'bug' is more complicated than autoslides, and would be interested to hear more of what you think.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Steve1977 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:54 pm

gdh82 wrote:
Thanks for your considered thoughts, John. This is exactly the kind of post I hoped to see here. Disagreements don't have to turn into disputes. In discussing our different points of view, I may well come to another conclusion on the second type of autoslide!



I know what you mean Gaz, initially I wasn't too fussed if Autoslides were put back into it but saw no place for the unintended slide bug. However...after reading peoples arguments on the forum it has made me think a different way. With Autoslides they'r just random but with the bug, it is possible to determine when they'r going to happen and it can occur many times during a match which means both players can take advantage from it and...it's possible to stop them from happening. So it's something that isn't quite as random as initially thought.

Still prefer to play them with it both off but with the benefit of threads like this where people have been discussing this, I now see the pro's and con's on the argument and therefore, regardless of what tournament organisers prefer to use in future tournaments, I won't be swayed either way because I can see positives to both. Although, just as Brazilian players like to play in warm weather, I ideally like to play without auto's hehe :)

Above all, the game is essentially the same. It's just an ideal...I'll still have plenty of fun regardless. If I play a tournament in the Midlands at Gaz's then Autoslides will be taken out...if I play a tournament at Waynie's then they'l probably be back in. Providing they don't go overboard, it's the hosts perogative really. Take the last year for instance. Most of the tournies in Birmingham have had them removed...all of the tournies in Reading/Heathrow have had them in. Have i therefore had more fun in Birmingham? Of course not - I'v had fun at all tournaments. All equally as memorable as each other, but due to the circumstances in results, some turn out to be full on classics. Whether they'r included or not is not something that's going to 'break the game' and whether they'r in there or not, there is still plenty of classic KO2 atmosphere. Just a slight tweak that a host may use in the same way that a ref in from Britain may give fouls in the box whereas a continental ref will overlook it.
If I add them back in for a koohl tournament, I wouldn't expect it to have an affect on the attendance and vice versa. It's just a subtle ideal that changes from region to region.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Torchiador » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:42 pm

I've found really fair the John's post. good post.
Just to make it clear, I'd like to make you understand that AUTO SLIDES are NOT completely random.
I mean that, yes, it is true, they can happen also if you are not in the gameroom BUT if you are in the gameroom you can try to avoid potential auto slides situations and from your advantage side, you can try to force opponent in auto slide.
At the same way that we can force opponent in unintended slide situation, running close to opponent who is controlling the ball, there is a way to force auto slide situation, using some moves and moving your player in the correct way, of course who know this one, he is also able to go out from some critical situation, avoiding potential autoslide.
Note that mainly, for the whole KOA, those moves are UNINTENDED because it doesn't know it, but those very little players who know it. I mean that the most of KOA makes unintended moves that drive opponent in potential autoslide situation and on the other side, the most of KOA makes move that drive themselves in potential autoslide situation.
Anyway, when your controlled player is sliding or he is lying down on the pitch after a tackle, in those situations you have no control of any players and in that moment, if opponent make some moves that lead to your autoslide situation the autoslide may happens if the aggression stats of players in proximity of the ball is high. In this case you cannot avoid the autoslide situation. to avoid this kind of situation, you simply need to avoid intended slides, unintended slides, and of course you need to avoid to lose tackles.
In normal situation (no sliding players and no lying down players) autoslides situation are related to position of the ball, position of the players controlled by humans, position of the ball controlled by CPU and ball possession, in the end autoslides happens according with the aggression value. I know this just by playing KO2 thousands of times, but I'm quite sure that if SteveC or JohnW dig in the code, they could be more clear than me. Yes, it is not easy to avoid autoslide, even for the players who know it.
Besides this one, I rewrite something I've posted some days ago:
During the game there is a particular situation in which if you tap the fire button, your opponent goes in autoslide.
It is rare situation but systematic. I could help my dissertation with a video, using the joystick layout KO2CV option.
Besides this one, if your opponent kicks the ball giving after touch, if you are very close to the opponent and you intercept the ball kicking it in less than half second, your opponent continue to affect the ball control completing his after touch manoeuvre (the time is half second)and you cannot give after touch to your shot. It is not a rare situation and systematic.
At last, all of you know that if you run close in a parallel way, if you push your joystick in diagonal direction forward your opponent, you continue to run in parallel direction to your opponent.
I'm aiming to say that many things in KO2 are related to both the players input. and there is a crossing over between them.
Many of those things annoying the game experience because it seems that we have to run over eggs and nobody can have a complete control over their own players. Many times autoslides/unintended slides are unavoidable.
I really hate autoslides because, even if I handle it, I don't like it because for me, the game would be understood as a game where team A control only what happen to team A players and the same for team B. I don't like the input crossing over.
On the other side, I don't want to have a dummy KO2, I like his complexity, who is good in Ko2 is because he handles those complexities and I don't want make KO2 easier for those who aren't able to manage those complexities.
Anyway, besides those complexities, in KO2 there is a strong random factor which can draw the course of the game so I can understand the point of James.
So, in my opinion, we need a KOA referee in KO2, a right referee who punish always on the pitch with the right weight.
1st foul no pain (just the free kick) 2nd foul of the same player goes in yellow card. 3rd foul sends off the player. in this way, if you have a yellow, you can substitute the player before it is too late. so you are covered by the risk of killer autoslides.
In this way the randomness of referee doesn't draw the course of the game.
I'm sure that a KOA referee doesn't change in any way the gameplay and it could be really good for the fairness in tournaments.
In this way all the player who say that "I love the game as is" can find a good compromise, and those ones who don't want that auto/unintended things affects so much the game, they can find a good compromise as well.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Stainy » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:45 pm

Steve1977 wrote:What's your feelings on Autoslides taken out Stainy?


Yes I have feelings on autoslides taken out... no need to capitalise it.. it`s not that important :roll:

Leave em the fuck there...

I hate this crusade..

There`s only one GOOD crusade.. and this hasn`t got Harrison Ford in it!
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Steve1977 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:54 pm

erm..capitalise what mate? Knowing that you'd posted a few times I wondered which was your stance in this issue. Plus your opinion is important mate. You'r a legend of the KOA and as I'v said in other posts - A person who epitomises the true spirit of tournies which is meeting up and having fun.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Tripod » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:19 am

Some very good points. Gianni, you do know the game inside out, don't you? After reading that I feel I should vote for removing both types of autoslide because I'd be one of those who'd profit a lot. Because I do need to trap the ball the whole time and because I don't know the game's details that well. On the other hand, I feel reluctant to agree to any changes of the gameplay. Maybe the "koa ref" is a good compromise - though since I love tackling I usually have most fun with a "blind" ref. (Ok, I'll admit it: I love nothing more than fouling the whole time and not getting a card while my opponent gets a player sent off every time. :))
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:23 am

Superb post from Guru Gianni! 8) 8) 8) I take your point completely that autoslides are triggered by certain conditions which if you're skillful enough you can help create. Therefore a devilishly good player may well cause my player to autoslide! :shock: :evil: :)

Jsut to reminder: I'm keen to avoid confusion that's happened before where half of us are talking about autoslides and half of us are talking about unintended slide bug in the same thread! This thread is for autoslides only (AUTOSLIDES = AI generated slides/headers).

Here is the he unintended slide bug thread (UNINTENDED SLIDE 'BUG' = Button press that is wrongly interpreted by the code as a slide tackle when the intention is to 'trap the ball').

@ Stainy - I don't know which part of debate you don't understand but I'm not trying to force anyone to think the same way as me. I'm every bit as keen to avoid disputes as you but this is a discussion man! And don't sell yourself short - everyone's opinion here is as important as everyone else's. (I pm'ed you yesterday - feel free to reply)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:39 am

Tripod wrote:(Ok, I'll admit it: I love nothing more than fouling the whole time and not getting a card while my opponent gets a player sent off every time. :))


:lol: :lol: :lol: If only we were all this honest! :)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Stainy » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:07 am

@ Stainy - I don't know which part of debate you don't understand but I'm not trying to force anyone to think the same way as me. I'm every bit as keen to avoid disputes as you but this is a discussion man! And don't sell yourself short - everyone's opinion here is as important as everyone else's. (I pm'ed you yesterday - feel free to reply)


Not understanding what exactly? I get it Garry... really I do..

Also.. for forcing anyone to think the same way as you... you kinda are.. in a way... even if you don`t realise it..


You brought this whole slide/no slide unintended crap up.. so if it gets to be the norm.. then you have suceeded..

I mean... what else narc`s you about the game? ... just keep your slide/unintended nonsense to your local tornaments.. and leave the rest of them alone..

Thats my opinion.
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