The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:47 am

hogstrom wrote:Good point Alkis, It cant be said enough times that the gatherings (especially the Wcups) is highly enjoyable.


What John said! :)

Alkis wrote:You know, enjoy the fun part of the KOA before you get involved in its less attractive face?
You should know that rules discussions are always the most boring & ugly aspect of the KOA.


What Alkis said too. Its like I love football but always hated cleaning my boots. This is even worse than that - like wiping dog shit off - very unpleasant but also necessary. :lol: :)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:55 am

Bounty Bob wrote: How the hell am I stopping a debate from happening?


Mark, your posts such as "You win, Garry" could easily be seen as childish. You repeatedly seem to be belittling this discussion and discouraging constructive debate. I tried to pre-empt these type of responses by putting both sides of the argument in this thread, listing a range of points of view, including a quote from you!!! :shock: Imho your posts do a disservice to the anti-change lobby even though you are as capable of making as considered a contribution as any of the pro-change lobby.

I do not expect you or anyone else to agree with me but I expect posts to this thread to be relevant, considered and constructive.

I can't help wondering if your aim is to disrupt this thread to a point where the topic is locked. :(
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:17 am

dnielsen wrote:Garry, I'd much rather play Kick Off 2 with you, but for now it seems we have to do with a discussion...

Me too! :) But remember this thread is partly here following calls such as those from you for the arguments in favour of change to be clearly put forward. I went further than that by trying to put present both sides as I saw them.

dnielsen wrote:It is rather ALSO about "the straw that broke the camel's back".

I can see where your coming from and would agree if I was proposing half a dozen changes in gameplay but I'm not. We are discussing here one very minor (imo) change in gameplay. You may have seen that I have already agreed with Alex's suggestion that gameplay changes be put on hold so that "bugs" can be focused upon instead. I honestly do not have any new straws in my back pocket! :)

- How big are the costs of removing auto-slides (such as sour feelings, loss of authentic experience, loss of attendance, a less inclusive stance towards people not already a part of KOA, changes happening too fast so people cannot adapt on a fair footing)?

Completely agree with this and any decent tournment organiser should considers these factors. Indeed I took considerable steps (including pm-ing and emailing individuals which you obviously could not have been aware) as co-organiser in the recent UKCs. There is no evidence to suggest that attendance fell due to it and the feedback made by others has been overwhelmingly positive.

As I have mentioned elsewhere this is a general thread and you're mistaken if you think I'm particularly concerned at whatever settings are decided upon for WC08 - I'm not. It is should be seen partly as a reference thread for tournaments generally and partly as the pros/cons for exploring the options menu in KO2CV!


dnielsen wrote:I will not try to figure out if KO2 is objectively a better game without auto-slides, or with pitch walls. Such questions are ultimately empty metaphysical exercises, and irrelevant in the context of KOA WC decisions.

Metaphysical exercies ? Hmmm - I just thought I was putting forward my subjective views on the practical pros/cons within a ko2 playing/tournament context! Everyone is entitled to make their own interpretations of course.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:40 am

BountyBugFanBob, the reason I found it weird going back to the bug enabled version was that suddenly my players were doing things without me pressing any buttons or when I pressed the fire button, the guy slid... when clearly I intended for him to trap the ball.

I imagine this is how others that tried the bug enabled version felt when they went back.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:55 am

BountyBugFanBob, the truth of the matter is.. that you are such a top laugh and nobody wants to see you stop attending tournaments due to the autoslide issue... me included.

Clearly Garry is deeply affected by this so wants to convince you to withdraw your non attendance threat... hence the large amount of postings everywhere.....
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:01 am

JamesHBeard wrote:BountyBugFanBob
James, why do you continue to dig at me? We might not agree but at least I refrain from name calling and nastiness. This is just the latest example, nearly every post I see from you in these threads has a pop at me when others have also expressed an interest in keeping the game as it is. At least I've tried it with the new settings and have a preference from an informed point of view. I'm sorry that you don't like my views. You clearly don't understand my point of view. I'm not abug fan ffs. I just see the trap/slide bug as quite a bug gameplay change and I'm a fan of maintaining the gameplay as much as possible. I don't see auto slides as a bug, so see no need for them to change.

I only keep posting because I'm concerned for the game that I've played for 15+ years. I'd thought that I'd always enjoy playing Kick Off and can't believe that it's heading in a direction that I won't enjoy any more. If I shut up, then all we'll have is the pro-change voice and the changes will happen.

JamesHBeard wrote:the reason I found it weird going back to the bug enabled version was that suddenly my players were doing things without me pressing any buttons or when I pressed the fire button, the guy slid... when clearly I intended for him to trap the ball.
So it's quite a big gameplay change then? This the whole point. For the game to feel weird when going back to the normal version, the gameplay must have changed quite significantly. This is not something that we should be messing with IMO.

JamesHBeard wrote:I imagine this is how others that tried the bug enabled version felt when they went back.
You don't need to imagine, it's been posted by a few of them. Personally, I've tried it and was more than happy to go back.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:04 am

JamesHBeard wrote:BountyBugFanBob, the truth of the matter is.. that you are such a top laugh and nobody wants to see you stop attending tournaments due to the autoslide issue... me included.

Clearly Garry is deeply affected by this so wants to convince you to withdraw your non attendance threat... hence the large amount of postings everywhere.....
I realise that but I've said a few times that I don't enjoy playing Kick Off with these new features. I can't help how I feel about it and seeing it posted so many times just hits the feelings home harder. It seems like things are heading this way, at least in the UK if not for the world cup and even that could be in danger. I really don't want to stop playing Kick Off but I'm not going to spend my time doing something I don't enjoy and it's as simple as that.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Troglos » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:45 am

GDH82 don' hate me, but all this 3d are boring me.

Differently from what James is said to BB, there are not bug-fanboys, but only KO2 fan.

For me, the only implementation that are good for ko2 tournaments are A=B + PBDmix, but only to allow more games in a day and with only one version of this game. After 20 years if I play KO2 I want to continue play with it, with all its features and bugs because I love this game as it is.
Camber is a great scientist of ko code and his work is really interesting, but personally I think (but i'm not the only one) that all these changes are bringing the game ever more distant from what is the ko2 that I loved so much in all this years.
Probably for these reasons I' ll not participate in many international tournaments, just because I want to play ko2 that i prefer, and since I have the good fortune of being able to play anyway with my friends, even without doing tournaments, all of this is not so important.

Please don't say that this is childish, it' s a respectable point of view as yours.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:02 pm

Mark, this dance we do, is not the first time - and you know it! So I struggle to believe its anything to do with repetition or boredom. You don't seem able to make any distinction between the development thread and this one ? You don't seem to read the purpose of a thread that I try to set out in the beginning. Its as if you go into a panic whereby you relentless post your objections to the mere existence of a thread. Prior to these two DEBATE threads, I have only started one pro-change thread in 6-months (the untouchable back pass bug). You seem to have an intolerance problem - not so much hay fever but change fever - please see a doctor! :)

Bounty Bob wrote:Now, I can just be boring and say the same thing over and over again, or I can express displeasure about how many threads are discussing the same things. It's tired and it's boring, so I can either chip in or say nothing.


Please consider saying nothing! You will see that I've already representated your view in post #2. Given you are clearly not interested in elaborating on this, you didn't need to make a single post to this thread!!!!!!!

Obviously the idea of this debate thread is for people to put forward their views on the pros/cons of autoslides and to respond where challenged. That is exactly what I have done - I have put forward my view ONCE and have responded where questions have been raised. It is up to the reader to decide who they agree with most. The problem with your posting style to this thread is that it does NOT shed any new light on the issues and makes the thread a pain in the ass to read!

This isn't aimed at you in particular Mark but as stated in the top of this thread I intend to delete any posts that are not concerned with debating the pros and cons of autoslides. If anyone needs to express their boredom etc please pm me rather than litter this thread. Thank you.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:18 pm

Troglos wrote:For me, the only implementation that are good for ko2 tournaments are A=B + PBDmix, but only to allow more games in a day and with only one version of this game. After 20 years if I play KO2 I want to continue play with it, with all its features and bugs because I love this game as it is. Probably for these reasons I' ll not participate in many international tournaments, just because I want to play ko2 that i prefer.

Please don't say that this is childish, it' s a respectable point of view as yours.


Marco, I don't hate anyone around here! (Though Bbob is pushing the boundaries, I agree! ;)) I fully respect your opinion - I accept it too. This thread is open to ALL points of view. The idea was not to be boring or repetitive - iirc this is the first time anyone has set out a range of arguments on autoslides and invited contributions. Although similar points have been made before, they are lost deep within other threads covering a range of ussues and won't be easy to find later on. There are many threads on this forum that I too find boring but I don't complain about their existence.

By the way, your point of view is NOT CHILDISH. I was not saying that - I was challenging Bbob's posting style to this thread, that's all. I hope you can see this now. :)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Steve Camber » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:31 pm

Collecting all the info on a topic into one thread is a good idea as important posts can be lost when looking back.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:02 pm

Whether you're going to the WC08 or not, whether you're for autoslides or not, why not explore that KO2CV options menu?

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Maybe try out for yourself the great game with autoslides deactivated ? All considered opinions welcome ...

For more on any of these menu options, go to the KO2 Competition Version (KO2CV) Index
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby Steve1977 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:23 pm

One thing with watching the Euro's on TV and hearing peoples thought in the other forum has really drummed home to me that no matter what is included for future tournaments (within reason of course) it is still the same game.

Just take real life football. That has changed taking place before most major tournaments...different footballs to make it more difficult for the goal keeper...and judging by the Swizterland game earlier in the week they'r opting for a Soggy pitch now too.
Also Fifa and the refs are quite rightly clamping down on diving, shirt pulling in the box etc.

Yet it's the same game of football and I'v not met anyone who has said "I'm never watching another game of Football because of the backpass rule" (which changed the game fairly dramatically)

What I'm trying to point out is that the KOA are like FIFA. If they can make the game more enjoyable by applying subtle changes then why not?

It's not even a massive change but it goes a long way to enchancing people's enjoyment of the great game.

Football has changed a lot over the years and whilst we'r not looking for a radical reprogramming of the game, we'r just looking for a subtle evolution of the game to remove the "wtf? i didn't even click fire! f*Cking shite old game"

But regardless of whether Autoslides are activated or not...it's still the same game (albiet improved without these random acts of stupidity occuring). I'v been really enjoying Kick Off 2 and perhaps I wouldn't have done as well as I have been without autoslides being deactivated? Not one for me to answer...but I now face a very real prospect of attending a World Cup with the settings I'm so against to be activated (or deactivated as the case may be). So I'll travel all the way to Athens only to concede a dodgy penalty? I'll be pissed off but I can take it on the chin...it's essentially the same game. Albiet one that has regressed back to a slightly inferior version. Same that last year I went to Italy even though it was A=B...I quite simply couldn't give a f*ck. I enjoy playing the game but I love the competition this fine game generates, the atmosphere, the food, the beer, meeting up with people and whatnot.
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