The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

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The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:34 am

Whereever you stand in the debate, this thread aims to inform you of all the issues!

Further to the "Moving the Debate Forward" thread which went off in all directions, I thought I'd start a single-issue thread containing all the key arguments both in support and against autoslides. This purpose of this thread is not simply to promote my own ideas although I will express my views as part of it. Its an opportunity for everyone to put their cards on the table, and I want everyone to feel able to contribute to this thread. :)

I've tried to list the key arguments in the top post (which I'll update as appropriate), that could provide an easy reference point for tournament organisers, and KOA members alike.


Pros and Cons of Deactivating Autoslides

PROS
1. Gives you greater control of your players, enhancing gameplay.
2. Removes unavoidable ("random") fouls/penalties/key players being moved out of their best position at vital times.
3. Removes the annoyance of autoslides

CONS
1. Removes randomness, making gameplay robotic
2. Removes the fun of autoslides
3. Part of slippery-slope of changing gameplay - won't be KO2 anymore


If your views on auto-slides are significantly different to the points raised above or the posts below, then do post to this thread. Please bear in mind that this thread is only about autoslides (not the unintended slide bug which'll have its own thread.) Off-topic posts will be deleted for the sake of clarity. It's hoped this thread will contain more light than heat!

If you're unsure of the difference between these two slides, watch this....

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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:34 am

I've quickly skimmed the WC08 Rules thread and cut and paste a cross-section of views. By all means feel welcome to post more about your viewpoint below. I shall be doing likewise.

kofoed wrote: i consider auto-slides very annoying at the wrong moments, especially when they're not performed by my opposing team. But. I also consider random elements to make the games and tournaments interesting....it is a thin line between eliminating random things and eliminating the game's special spirit.


JamesHBeard wrote:As for the autoslide bug, I am still to find any decent reason to leave it in the game. Is anyone happy to lose a world cup QF, SF, F , having spent a few hundred pounds on travelling and accomodation expenses, due to the amiga deciding to slide and giving a penalty or having a red card? Any takers ?


Panayotis7 wrote:now about the autoslide, where the players the amiga is controlling jump and slide around like a fucking circus, i would not say let's remove it, but if there is a vote i may vote for it to be removed, since that is smth beyond the player's control


hogstrom wrote:Im not looking for a lottery-game at all when playing kickoff2


Bounty Bob wrote:So in summary my view is that auto slides shouldn't be voted on as it's a fundamental change in the ai working. It's a slippery slope.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:34 am

Promise I'll keep this brief...

PROS

1. Gives you greater control of your players, enhancing gameplay.
One of the great things about tourneys is the thrill of the battle, two players piting their ko2 skills against the other, joystick against joystick! For me, autoslides and autoheaders detract from this battle. Everytime one happens its as if there's a gremlin in my joystick pressing the button for me! I no more want to gain from one as I do want to be penalised by one. With autoslides removed it gives you greater control of your players, its almost as if it brings the gameplay even closer. Its feels exactly like KO2 and it enhances the virtues of the great game imo.

2. Stops unavoidable fouls/penalties/key players being moved out of their best position at vital times.
For one player or the other, autoslides invariably lead to fouls or the ball going out of play - both needless interruptions in play. When a key centre back goes out of position due to a auto-header, its just plain annoying. Worse still, they can lead to free-kicks, penalties and even red cards. All of these things still happen with autoslides deactivated, but at least when they do, they are down to the players actions at the joystick. You could even argue that introducing these elements randomly is almost 'anti-competitve' - random 'red cards/penalties' have no place in a competitive tournament imo.

3. Removes the annoyance of autoslides
See 1 and 2.


CONS

1. Removes randomness, making gameplay robotic
Imho this is an over-simplication. Of course deactivating autoslides would diminish some randomness but to an incrediably small degree imo. One of the great virtues of the game is the depth of gameplay. Isn't there something like 90 random functions, a dozen or so player attributes, ball and player and pitch dynamics, refererring decisions (or lack of!), strange goal-keeping behaviour. The reduction of randomness due to the deactivation of autoslides is so incrediably small and far outwieghed by the pros imo.

2. Removes the fun of autoslides
Fun ? Sure in a jff game, when I'm larking about, not caring about the outcome at all, I can enjoy the fun of them. I can't say I enjoy the fun of them in a tournament however (whether or not they're to my advantage).

3. Part of slippery-slope of changing gameplay - won't be KO2 anymore
I disagree with the view that changes in gameplay have to avoided. A=B and PBD mix are evidence of this and could provide reasurrance that even with carefully considered changes we still have the fantastic KO2CV which still provides all the pleasures of yesteryear! 8)

Anyway, regardless of what I have said, don't take my word for it, try it out yourself! That is what the KO2CV options menu is for ffs! :)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby goalkeeper » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:46 am

A stupid question from my side, because i never played without autoslide.
If i deactivate autoslide, does it means also i deactivate autoheaders?
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:47 am

goalkeeper wrote:A stupid question from my side, because i never played without autoslide.
If i deactivate autoslide, does it means also i deactivate autoheaders?


Not stupid at all, my friend. The answer is yes - both are deactivated.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby goalkeeper » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:50 am

Oops, not good for my poor defence, they safe me a lot of times :) :shock: :wink:
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:53 am

goalkeeper wrote:Oops, not good for my poor defence, they safe me a lot of times :) :shock: :wink:


Have faith in your own KO2 skills man! :) Keep playing and I'd suspect you'd prefer to do your own headers in time! 8)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues!

Postby goalkeeper » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:35 pm

gdh82 wrote:
Have faith in your own KO2 skills man! :) Keep playing and I'd suspect you'd prefer to do your own headers in time! 8)


Mere words, but after playing more than 100 times against Oliver and still jumping like a rabbit with my defenders through the penaltybox, i thought with or without autoslide, my fate is to make use of my chances in scoring a goal. Three goals out of 23 shoots on goal is poorer than getting one of five headers.
I suggested the last Cologne tournament " lets try without auto and unintended slide", but i was vote down. And after i crashed my joystick because of the 10000000000000 header i was not able to defend, it will now takes a long time to repair it and make a well-grounded comment on the subject switch autoslide on/off.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby dnielsen » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:30 pm

Garry, I'd much rather play Kick Off 2 with you, but for now it seems we have to do with a discussion... :P Maybe it's a sign of our age. I'm sure that 15 years ago, we would have settled any differences with two joysticks and a small monitor :lol:

One ironical point is this:

There is a slippery slope argument around. To argue against this slippery slope argument, it is pointed out that we have ALREADY had successful changes to KO2, so changes are not necessarily a bad thing. In other words, previous changes are used as a lever to push through further (and possibly bad) changes. Which is exactly what the slippery slope argument is a warning against...

That being said, it is easy to erect the slippery slope as a strawman that you can then beat down. The crucial argument however is not ONLY one of a slippery slope towards bad changes. It is rather ALSO about "the straw that broke the camel's back". That one or two (or three, or...) changes may be tolerable, but sooner or later we will reach a state where the game has been changed too much compared to the original experience. In that light, pointing out that A=B and PBD/NOPBD were gameplay changes is actually equally much an argument AGAINST further changes.

This whole debate from your point of view seems to about "objectively improving" the game of KO2 (you rarely give any arguments in the concrete context of the WC). However, this debate is pretty pointless when exercised in a vacuum. To illustrate this, I gave "convincing" reasons why we should play with pitch walls, in your previous thread. The point is that the quality of a game can not be objectively measured. KO2 is a great game, and so I have heard that PES is. However, I would much rather play KO2 than PES. Why? Because KO2 is the game I already know and enjoy. Similarly, I had a great night playing a bunch of games with Logos over the net, where we used pitch walls. It was a total blast, super intensive. Since then, we have returned to the normal wall-free game, however. We're old dogs, and we're just not that willing to adapt to any new options or tricks we are offered.

All that being said, I might end up voting in favor of removing auto-slides prior to the WC. I might not. However, when I decide on my vote (if we have a vote), I will try to answer a different question than the one that your discussion seems to about. I will not attempt to answer questions like:

- Would Kick Off 2 objectively be a better game if it were without auto-slides?
- If Dino Dini had wondered whether to remove auto-slides during development of KO2, should he have done it?
- If a worthy successor of KO2 had been developed in the start of the 90'es, should they have gone for not including auto-slides in this version?

Instead, I will try to figure out the answer to questions like:

- How big are the costs of removing auto-slides (such as sour feelings, loss of authentic experience, loss of attendance, a less inclusive stance towards people not already a part of KOA, changes happening too fast so people cannot adapt on a fair footing)?
- What is the benefit, that is, which PROBLEMS does a removal solve? (such as a sense of randomness being too decisive, or a feeling that random events derail and interrupt the flow of skills competing)?

I will not try to figure out if KO2 is objectively a better game without auto-slides, or with pitch walls. Such questions are ultimately empty metaphysical exercises, and irrelevant in the context of KOA WC decisions. In our context, practical considerations about the feelings of people matter more than abstract theorems about gameplay logic. You would do your cause a better service by appealing to the feelings and common sense of people, rather than using abstract logic to tell people why their feelings and common sense approaches are unjustified (which is what you do when you tell them that they must not be emotionally resistant to gameplay changes because we already have had A=B and PBD/NOPBD).

Finally, let me admit that I fully admire your persistance and share your desire and curiosity towards improving (or fixing, or adding options to) KO2 so we can play it in ways that we have previously only dreamed of. I just humbly suggest that you do not so easily mix up this desire with a desire to PREACH those changes. For example: Why is it so imperative to you that we play the next WC not only without auto-slides, but also with a redesigned slide/trap mechanism? Why is it so imperative to you that other tournaments that you do not attend are played with these two changes? Do you think it will be a catastrophe for KOA if we do not manage to push through not only one, but two changes before Athens?
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:00 pm

JamesHBeard wrote:
Bounty Bob wrote:Another thread?????????

FFS. Oh well, I vote to remove autoslides.

At least now I can forget about it and spend my time more constructively. I'm fed up of reading the same thing again and again and again and again...

You win Garry.


BountyBob, are you still in your "throw toys out of pram" situation, where if you dont get your own way, you quit?



Guys, above all this is a pro-debate thread - it is NOT about preaching and is purposely open to everyone and my views are only my views. (PLEASE READ THE TOP POST!) This is first time I've seen anyone set out both sides of the debate in a fair and balanced way (imo) inviting others to contribute if they wish. Of course good points, both for and against, have already been made elsewhere but very often they are lost deep in a meandering thread about a number of rules. Again, I hoped this thread could be different.

No one should feel compelled to read or even contribute to it. It is meant to be a reference thread that could be referred to where necessary, possibly avoiding the groundhog threads before every big tourney ?

It is NOT imperative for the WC08 to be autoslide free - this is clearly a matter for the participants and the host to decide. I have never said otherwise and anyone who thinks so has mistepreted my intentions completely. As I shall not be going to the WC08 I have respectfully stayed out of the Rules debate. I ask anyone who doesn't wish to constructively post here, to do likewise.

My aim in all of this is merely to have an open and balanced debate - judging from some of the posts so far, it seems there are some that don't even want this debate to happen! Still, this gives me the perfectly opportunity to try out my newly acquired mod powers!!! ;)

I am grateful to Volker and Dnielsen, however, for making constructive contributions to this thread. :)
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:43 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:So you deleted my post then? My sentiment still stands, these threads are getting tiresome. Yes you've laid out pros and cons but they've all been discussed elsewhere. My opinion is that I don't see what is to be gained by going over it again.

Oh well, at least now you have the powers to edit out anything I write that you don't like. Looks like you win again! :roll:


Please read my posts more, Mark. You are more than welcome to post your pros/cons but do not feel obliged to.

PS I deliberated left you post in James' reply. Please read the thread more, and stop taking things so personally, and stop trying to destroy a well intentioned thread.
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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby alkis21 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:46 pm

@ Dagh:

Mate, you've been in the KOA forum for little more than a month. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with you, I'm puzzled by your obsession in discussing rules. People usually spend a few months of excitement, asking about the KOA, how things are in gatherings, even join a tournament or two before they decide we're doing everything wrong and start telling us how to run ourselves. Don't you want to at least play in a tournament or two before you conclude on the changes that need to be made? You know, enjoy the fun part of the KOA before you get involved in its less attractive face?

You should know that rules discussions are always the most boring & ugly aspect of the KOA. You're probably imaging our gatherings full of people who argue over trivialities, but in fact our actual get-togethers look more like this:

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Re: The "Deactivating Autoslides" Debate Thread - The Issues

Postby hogstrom » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:58 am

alkis21 wrote:You're probably imaging our gatherings full of people who argue over trivialities, but in fact our actual get-togethers look more like this:

Image


Good point Alkis, It cant be said enough times that the gatherings (especially the Wcups) is highly enjoyable. When seeing pictures like this one (the Germans in their standard, great mood) it makes me little sad I´ve missed several Wcups that was played before I cared to make a search for "kickoff2" on the internet :(
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