KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

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KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby gdh82 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:06 pm

I'm reading yet another discussion about tournament rules and KO2CV settings and even though I've only been around 5 mins compared to some, I've already got this terrible feeling of deja vous! :(

Believe it or not, I start this post, not to create further division, but to suggest an approach which could reduce the scope of disagreement. This thread is entirely separate from WC08 debate but is about KO2CV development generally.

I take the view that our shared affection for the great game means we all have so much more in common than that which separates us. The intention of this thread then is to suggest a way of focusing the debates we have, and to try to avoid us from going round and round in circles as we sometimes do!.

The biggest swamp that we sometimes find ourselves sinking in, is where views are expressed that so and so cannot be changed because that's a change in gameplay, or that it wouldn't be the game I grew up with. For me, such arguments are not only strait-jacket positions to take but imho are fundamentally flawed arguments too!

The biggest single change in KO2CV imo is the A=B enhancement. This changes every shot, every player collision, every application of player attribute - EVERY ASPECT OF GAMEPLAY. Accepting the change that is A=B and the obvious advantages it brings, is an acceptance that gameplay can be changed!!!!!!

IN SHORT - GET OVER IT, MOVE ON! - Gameplay has already fundamentally changed!

The point is that changes in gameplay can and do bring benefits to everyone in the KOA. :shock: This is where we NEED to move this debate forward. Rather than suffocating debate at the outset by rejecting our of hand any change in gameplay, I'd strongly encourage all of us to openly consider the pros or cons of any suggested change. Any change will have those for and against it, but, come on, lets at least hear some damn sensible arguments!!!!!

The KOA is hugely fortunate to have members such as Steve Camber and John Wilson that freely offer their time and talents for the benefit of all of us. :bow:

In saying this, I honestly don't have a hidden agenda to seek major changes to the great game. I too want KO2CV to retain the magic from yesteryear. I sometimes wonder if people wrongly believe I'm hellbent on changing every aspect of KO2. Far from it - the way I see it, its only about making some very minor changes. Any change should enhance the virtues of the game - the simplicity of the control and immediacy of the action. IMHO the game has no less drama nor becomes more robotic as a result of carefully considered changes. The depth of the great game (player attributes, ball and pitch physics, refereeing decisions, goal keeping behaviour and of course, human error) ensure this. 8) 8) 8) 8)

For me, KO2CV is one of the jewels in the KOA crown, together with the community of KOA'ers and the tournaments/gatherings that bring us together. I just think that KO2CV keeps breathing yet new life in the old dog, offering the KOA exciting possibilites to add to the great game and not take away. Then again, I'm also aware that posts such as this, can be about as effective as pissing in the wind!!! ;)
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby Bounty Bob » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:49 pm

Is this where I announce my retirement?
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby alkis21 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:35 pm

We must always remember that the forum community of the Kick Off Association represents only a small percentage of the past, present and future Kick Off players.

When I hear the word 'change', I always think of two things:

1) The people who come to tournaments but rarely (if ever) post here. Don't forget that language is a serious barrier for some.

2) The people who will join the KOA in the future.

And that's without counting the ones who have phased out but will eventually return (it happens all the time). We are currently part of the decision making process. This is a privilege we must handle with a sense of responsibility rather than arrogance and personal interest. Anyone of us could have joined the KOA later than we did; how would we feel if we had discovered a number of carelessly implemented changes in our beloved game?

You've seen it several times. You meet someone who used to play KO2 in the old days. You tell him about the KOA and he's excited, but afraid that he's going to get thrashed because of the lack of practice. The more we change the game, the less the chances to make a regular player out of him.

Thanks to this community and Steve Camber, we were given the power to adjust things to our liking. This power should not be abused. Over the years, a greater number of changes than people are willing to admit have been implemented. I'm not proud of the methodology we used during the making of the decisions, but I'm VERY proud of the results. The tournament rules and game features have been slowly and carefully improved without making KO2 alien or reducing the enjoyment. I've always been a fan of the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" theory but I've also learned to listen to what people say. I'd be a poor WC organizer if I ignored all the voices and did not offer some controversial issues for vote.

One last (but certainly not least) thing:

I have noticed a latest trend in decision forcing and I am not amused. I will try to describe it without pointing any fingers: People suggest a change. When others protest, they insist that Steve implements a change in the "just for fun" menu, because what harm can it do, it's just for fun, right? He does, and they play some tournaments with that new option. Before you know it those same people demand that the new option is implemented in tournaments because "we tried it and it was good" and "ignoring it would mean disrespecting Steve's efforts". This sly attitude has got to stop right now. Just because something is in the JFF menu it does not mean that we are forced to use it, and furthermore, using Steve's name to get what you want is about the biggest disrespect I can think of.

Think about it before you start writing posts that begin with "if you're talking about me".
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby Torchiador » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:45 am

if you're talking about me...

About Point 1, Alkis, I think that language is a serious barrier, but nothing comparing laziness! Sandro, Alessandro, Mario and Fabio don't write in italian too. even if than they join the world cup every year...

About point 2, I don't care it so much, I mean, to preserve the original KO2 for furure player is not so helpful: when Alessandro V and I joined the KOA, we were KO2 extended version 1MB players, we didn't know that TeamA>B, we were Player manager tactic users and used to falcon, mainly we were playing with another game and a different game play given by PMT. When we knew that falcon, PM tactics and extended version was banished in KOA, with our disappoint, we simply adjust ourself to new surroundings, learning standard tactics and we are still here. I think that enyone else can do this without so many problems, at least, I had fairly good results.
On the other hand: if you are right: why enable extra tactics? It is really difficult that a new player knows ETs. for sure a player that had never used ETs is not so happy to fight against something which is completely new.

About your last but not least thing, I don't see the problem, we had a worldcup with A>B in 2007 with all people happy even if we had the famous 24-0 poll. So, I repeat, I don't see the problem.
Anyway, Alkis, i believe that you misunderstood the JFF acronym: it means: Just For Stop Protesting.
I'm sorry to say that in a place where discussions never bring anything good but walls, wars etc etc, I think that the trend that you described is a good treand.
Just for one reason: often one tournament gives a better feeling that a thread of 45 pages of flames, walls and wars.
For the same reason because even after a world cup with unpopular rules, usually the most of the player are really happy about the world cup, independently by the rules.
On the other hand, there is always someone who isn't happy by the rule even if you use the rule that God wrote on the stones.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby alkis21 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:52 am

Just because your personal story of joining the KOA went well don't assume that this happens (or will happen) for everyone. And think about it: if some compatriots had got their way before you joined, the KOA would be playing with wind today.

Torchiador wrote:I think that the trend that you described is a good trend.


I don't think I made myself clear. Implementing changes in the KO2CV and trying them out in tournaments is a good thing for sure. Demanding that those changes are implemented for that reason is not.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby Torchiador » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:43 am

alkis21 wrote:And think about it: if some compatriots had got their way before you joined, the KOA would be playing with wind today.

It isn't correct, my compatriot imposed the wind in Italian Championship 2003 and the most of us didn't like it. Then Filippo tried to use that tournament to force the wind in WC04 telling that all of us enjoyed the wind, than I understood that it was time to break my language barrier.
So I think that tournament are good to test changes. but none says that a bad change it has to stay, as we did for the wind.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:12 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:Is this where I announce my retirement?


Thanks for perfectly illustrating the blanket, head in the sand approach to not even considering the point of this thread - moving the debate beyond the suffocating, eyes-wide-shut, strait-jacket position and towards a place where we can actually discuss the pros and cons of an issue!
Last edited by gdh82 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby gdh82 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:23 pm

alkis21 wrote:Thanks to this community and Steve Camber, we were given the power to adjust things to our liking. This power should not be abused.This is a privilege we must handle with a sense of responsibility rather than arrogance and personal interest. Anyone of us could have joined the KOA later than we did; how would we feel if we had discovered a number of carelessly implemented changes in our beloved game?


Completely agree and I'm 100% against carelessly implementing any changes. I too very strongly want to avoid making the great game alien in any way.

alkis21 wrote:You've seen it several times. You meet someone who used to play KO2 in the old days. You tell him about the KOA and he's excited, but afraid that he's going to get thrashed because of the lack of practice. The more we change the game, the less the chances to make a regular player out of him.


I'm much less convinced of this point. Imho more people are likely to be put off because we don't play using FW, or soggy pitch isn't used, or are not familar with International teams etc etc. I do, however, completely agree that we must always strive to retain the magic of KO2 from the 'old days' Of course this is a matter of opinion but KO2CV doesn't detract from that magic at all imo.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:38 pm

gdh82 wrote:
Bounty Bob wrote:Is this where I announce my retirement?


Thanks for perfectly illustrating the blanket, head in the sand approach to not even considering the point of this thread - moving the debate beyond the suffocating, eyes-wide-shut, strait-jacket position and towards a place where we can actually discuss the pros and cons of an issue!
Garry, there's only so many times that I can keep making the same point. The changes are going too far now. If you want to play something different and more representative of football, get yourself an Xbox 360 and join me on Xbox Live for some matches.

There's nothing more to discuss from my point of view. If people are going to keep going on about changes then I'll just stop playing. It's nothing to do with sticking my head in the sand, I have my head high above the sand and can see that these changes are not a good thing. People have said after playing without auto slides, that playing with them again seems weird and wrong. That for me is proof enough that it's too much of a change.

I joined to play KO2, if I'm in a minority that still wants to do that, then I won't play again. Why are you so bothered that I don't want it to change? What does it matter if I really did have my head stuck in the sand? I'm only one person, with my own opinion. If I never play the game again, you'll still enjoy it.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 pm

Alkis,

I am the only person who has mentioned "Steve Camber" and "disrespect" in any recent thread to do with KO2 CV and you removed that post.... but you want to comment on it now.. how strange.

So.. you are most definately talking about me.

I have noted your comments and am going to take appropriate actions now.

At the end of the day, whenever any discussion is held about KO2 versions and changes it just ends up in some heated argument, until the ones who want their changes made bully everone into submission. Well, I am withdrawing from all future discussions on KO2 versions AGAIN and will play the version of KO2 that STEVE CAMBER gives to me to play with.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby alkis21 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:57 pm

JamesHBeard wrote:I am the only person


No you're not. Maybe only in public.

This thread serves no purpose. Dozens of things have changed since the first KOA tournament and more changes are being discussed at this very moment, so a thread on the topic of "should we make changes" is silly.
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:03 pm

The only issue I am happy to discuss now is how do we handle people in the KOA that say..

"If you make this change then I am no longer going to play in any KO2 tournaments"

We have had these sort of threats ever since the original discussion of Oracle or 1.4e ONLY, in fact I was probably one of the folks that threatened to stop playing.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: KO2CV Development - Moving the debate forward ?

Postby alkis21 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:05 pm

How do you suggest we handle them? Everyone is welcome to come and go as they please, half the KOA members have said that statement at some point or variations of it.
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