Final Whistle Competition Version - 0.2.1 Released 03-04-08

[Davetoast]

Wow, a game of footy finishing 0-0 or 1-0, who would've thunk it!

I think you haven't given the double tictacs a good enough go. They're just different to what you know, not harder or more boring, as is just about everything you want changed about the game. This project is supposed to be an evolution of FW, not making FW into 1.6. I mean, what's the point?

Having grown up with FW, I find KO2 every bit as hard to adapt to as you find FW. That's just the way it is. I'm not going to go and try to get FW keepers, double tictacs, overheads and flicks, etc. added to KO2_CV as it would be pointless and defeat the object.

Personally, I think most of the 1.6 changes should be dropped from this and added to a 1.6 evolution, leaving the FW evolution to be an FW evolution. Call me crazy like.

The only way I can see all these change the game into whatever you want options being a good thing would be if a version with every possbile 1.4, 1.6, FW and filth permutation available for the home team to choose exactly the type of match they want to play in comps.

[Torchiador]

Wow, a game of footy finishing 0-0 or 1-0, who would've thunk it!
I think you haven't given the double tictacs a good enough go. They're just different to what you know, not harder or more boring, as is just about everything you want changed about the game. This project is supposed to be an evolution of FW, not making FW into 1.6. I mean, what's the point?

If in a game of 90 minutes there are just 5-6 goal situation like real soccer, 0-1 is good as final score, but we are speaking of a 10 minutes game with 30/40 goal attempt. Do you see the point?
Anyway don't worry, I don't want waste your crusade for FW.
However, I don't think we can speak about a 1.6 evolution because the base of this is FW (new corners, new throw new shirts, line men, referee.
BTW, If you don't like this, I can simply email or PM John and don't post here. Anyway don't underestimate my FW knowledge. there is a small chance that I know FW better than you can understand.

[Davetoast]

Don't get me wrong Torch, I'm not looking to be confrontational, I'm trying to make a valid point. After all, this is 'John's' 'FW project'.

If in a game of 90 minutes there are just 5-6 goal situation like real soccer, 0-1 is good as final score, but we are speaking of a 10 minutes game with 30/40 goal attempt. Do you see the point?

Sorry but this is even more confusing then. Your original point was that the game is unplayable for you with double tactics because of great confusion in midfield and the defence being too strong for the attack. How does 30-40 goal chances fit into that picture?

Is this using the KO2 keeper or the FW keeper btw?

Anyway don't worry, I don't want waste your crusade for FW.

It's nothing to do with that mate as said crusade ended about 5 or 6 years ago when I realised it was pointless. The sig has remained ever since for that reason.

The points I am making are substantive and reasoned, not biased.

However, I don't think we can speak about a 1.6 evolution because the base of this is FW (new corners, new throw new shirts, line men, referee.

Seems to me that a 1.6 evolution would be just that, a similar project using 1.6 code and feel as the starting point and the basis for the scope of any changes. Otherwise it wouldn't be 1.6, just like FW without FW keepers, flicks, double tactics, etc. is no longer FW, or anything like it.

BTW, If you don't like this, I can simply email or PM John and don't post here.

It's nothing to do with personal feelings or me not liking it, nor is it about me trying to get the game made into my perfect version of KO. It's about what an evolution of FW that can still be called FW should and shouldn't be.

Anyway don't underestimate my FW knowledge. there is a small chance that I know FW better than you can understand.

Maybe so. In my estimation though, this has become a turn FW into 1.6 project, clearly, and that's not what it was supposed to be. And to my mind, anyone who knew FW like I do wouldn't dream of doing that.

You also earlier spoke of the lack of space with double tactics. Having played with them all my life, I can't understand how anyone with a greater knowledge of FW could make such a statement as I know full well that there's plenty of space and plenty of scoring opportunities to be had with most of them (besides the obvious defensive formations, like lockout, which are there precisely to close that space down - defence being just as big a part of football as attack is). In FW, I can score just as many goals as a KO2 player can score, whether it's against the AI or against a human. So I therefore have to wonder whether what you tell us about your inability to do so is more to do with your being more used to KO2, as opposed to any shortcomings of the game or the tactics.

[Torchiador]

I think we are going OT
But...

In FW, I can score just as many goals as a KO2 player can score, whether it's against the AI or against a human. So I therefore have to wonder whether what you tell us about your inability to do so is more to do with your being more used to KO2, as opposed to any shortcomings of the game or the tactics.

I think that the problem is here: It depends on WHO is your opponent.
For example, if you play against my brother Sandro with FW standard tactics, I'm enough sure that you haven't got so many chances to score. Final Whistle is a KO2 evolution,so, pass, move, trap, switching and shots routines are the same of KO2, so even if Sandro did never use FW tactics, he is able to stop you no matter how you do.
It is a bit different to play against CPU or to play with an hardcore gamer.
If 2 hardcore players play FW, the match ends 0-0 because of their defensive skills. And what they do for 10 minutes? Pinball in midfield. I'm afraid, for me this is boring. If I have to draw a match, I prefer 10-10 with 20 complete goal actions rather than a pinball in midfield.
Anyway, since you don't play FW against an hardcore player you can't get it.
I don't know how many goal are you able to score in 10 minutes in FW but I know that there are player who are able to score more than 20 goal per game in KO2, CPU or Uman player (ask to Sascha! what a demon! )
About the 30/40 attempt matter, I ment KO2.

However I think that FW has got few points which are better than KO2 and I'm really happy for the great work which John is doing.

[Davetoast]

with FW standard tactics, I'm enough sure that you haven't got so many chances to score.

The standard tactics are poor. Screech said so himself. They didn't have much time to implement the the double tactics but he got to spend a lot more time on the ones on the Winning Tactics disk. There are some very attacking formations, some very defensive ones, and everything inbetween. I guarantee you that if you both play the 'Spread' tactic, for instance, you will get an open and balanced game.

[Torchiador]

Cool! I guess that I'll try FW+WT on one of the next FWCV release!

[Torchiador]

In regard to FW, I read on the back of the box that there is a new additional player attribute: FLAIR . "It determines whether the player will play a passing or an individual game and make a solo attempt at the goal"
John, I'd like to know something more about this attrib, it is relative to CPU player only or there is also a relation with uman player?
thanks in advance

[Davetoast]

Yep, I'd always thought flair had an effect even when under human control but last time I mentioned it I was told that it's just for the CPU control, can't remember who by. It always seemed to me that Maradona, with his 200 flair, was way better on the ball than Mark Hately, with his erm, much less than 200 flair.

[John Wilson]

...whoa - there's been quite a bit of action on this thread recently

Thanks to Toast and Torchio - input from you two guys is especially appreciated due to your in depth knowledge on such subjects!

Here's my comments on some of the highlights:

Great confusion in midfield and it is impossible to use your skills because defenders are too much strong comparing attackers and if you try to dribble defender you loose the ball every time.

...the great differences in strength between the players in FW is something that bugged me a bit when I played the great game in the early nineties - an option to use KO2 Teams should cover this one. I'm not sure what you mean about the confusion in midfield - I always seem to find much more space in midfield than in KO2.

The only way I can see all these change the game into whatever you want options being a good thing would be if a version with every possbile 1.4, 1.6, FW and filth permutation available for the home team to choose exactly the type of match they want to play in comps.

...this is certainly the way things seem to be going. In terms of the actual code base, the differences between 1.2 through 2.1 are slight. Of course these subtle changes affect the gameplay in a big way but because of their small memory footprint, implementing every variation in a single version is a possibility.
I think you are right when you say FW-CV with the progressive options enabled isn't FW anymore. A couple of mods I've made - PBD, KO2 'keepers etc., may seem retrogressive but that is what most people want. Indeed, I prefer playing against KO2 'keepers as there are more options when taking the 'keeper on in the box - couple this with the option to give a KO2 'keeper the same good judgement on lobs as the FW 'keepers and you have a fine balance IMHO.

Apart from these 'retrogressive' changes there are some more novel improvements. I am most pleased with the optimistic tactics. These make the game more fast paced, allowing a defending team to counter attack very effectively (the resulting behaviour would appear to make a proper offside implementation possible too).
The CPU = Human speed option greatly improves single player games too.

In addition to KO2 teams, the next changes I plan to make are more progressive - e.g.:

• Winning Tactics included in the disk
• a comprehensive implementation of the backpass rule
• a proper offside implementation
• ...and I'm still wide open to any other suggestions.

I am still considering the KO2 tactics option - it would be interesting to see the results if your opponent has FW/WT tactics.

I will also continue with the single 'Progressive Setting'. This switches on my preferred settings - i.e. how I think the game should be played (note that they don't include control settings - PBD, scissor kick etc -these are rightly left up to individuals).
Torchio may be right that two very good KO2 players may not be able to score many times in a game but I have no doubt that these settings give the best single player games I have played in any version of kick-off

In regard to FW, I read on the back of the box that there is a new additional player attribute: FLAIR . "It determines whether the player will play a passing or an individual game and make a solo attempt at the goal"
John, I'd like to know something more about this attrib, it is relative to CPU player only or there is also a relation with uman player?

Yep, I'd always thought flair had an effect even when under human control but last time I mentioned it I was told that it's just for the CPU control, can't remember who by. It always seemed to me that Maradona, with his 200 flair, was way better on the ball than Mark Hately, with his erm, much less than 200 flair.

...this appears to affect only CPU players in a single way - the higher the flair value the less likely they are to pass the ball. Seems more like a more accurate attribute name would be 'Ball Greediness'
I suspect a truly effective high flair player will have other high value attributes such as agility and shooting - giving them a good reason to be ball greedy.

Once again thanks for the input! As always any suggestions and/or arguments are always welcome

[Bursk]

Sounds great! I'm really looking forward to the next version (don't forget about the 'orgasm').

[Davetoast]

Hi John

the great differences in strength between the players in FW is something that bugged me a bit when I played the great game in the early nineties

I don't remember any of us who grew up playing this together ever bringing this up. Perhaps it's because we always played with the international teams or the teams from the Giants of Europe disk. For me, this is part and parcel of the game. Gerd Muller or Nat Lofthouse, for instance, with their 200 strength were more likely to take defenders out than be taken out by them, which makes sense to me. On the whole though, defenders have greater strength than attackers and so it's usually the other way around. Having said that, attackers are usually faster and more agile than defenders so team selection, knowing who's on the ball, what they can do and how to therefore use them in that particular situation was always a part of the game for us. We religiously studied the player stats before most games for that purpose (as well as to give us something to do while we got smoked up).

And, of the standard teams available, the international teams are way more fun anyways. Who'd want to play with the other crappy teams available when they can play with the Spain team with Di Stefano, Suarez, Michel, Gento and Munoz; the Germany team with Beckenbauer, Brehme, Brietner, Matthaus, Rumenigge, Klinsmann, Muller; England with Moore, Charltons, Duncan Edwards, Stanley Matthews, Lofthouse, Lineker, Keegan; Italy with Faccetti, Baresi,Tardelli, Riva, Vialli, Rossi; France with Platini, Fontaine, Tigana, Kopa, Giresse, Tresor, Fernandez, Bossis, Papin; Scotland with Dalglish, Law, Liddel, Strachan, Johnston, Hansen, Baxter, Bremner; Holland with Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Cruyff, Koeman, Krol, Haan, Neeskens. The list goes on.

Then there's the Giants of Europe teams with all the great teams (and the not so great ones) circa 1990. The Milan of Baresi, Maldini and the 3 Dutchmen; The Inter of Bergomi, Ferri and the 3 Germans; Real with Hugo Sanchez and Butregueno up front, Hagi, Michel, Sanchis, Chendo; Barca with Laudrup, Stoihkov, Beguiristain, Goikoetxea, Koeman, Ferrer, Victor, Salinas; Napoli with Mardona and Careca up front; Barnes and Rush at Liverpool, Giggs, Hughes, Robson and Pallister at scum; Gazza and Lineker at Spurs; Pancev and Prosineki at Red Star. I'm not going to list them all but all these teams are fun to learn and stimulating to play with. A different star player to concentrate play around with every team.

...this is certainly the way things seem to be going. In terms of the actual code base, the differences between 1.2 through 2.1 are slight. Of course these subtle changes affect the gameplay in a big way but because of their small memory footprint, implementing every variation in a single version is a possibility.

# Winning Tactics included in the disk
# a comprehensive implementation of the backpass rule
# a proper offside implementation

Sounds sweet!

I prefer playing against KO2 'keepers as there are more options when taking the 'keeper on in the box - couple this with the option to give a KO2 'keeper the same good judgement on lobs as the FW 'keepers and you have a fine balance IMHO.

I'd prefer he also had the same judgement in not suicidally running off his line at every opportunity. But then that's why the KO2 keeper is so easily manipulated.

[John Wilson]

I don't remember any of us who grew up playing this together ever bringing this up. Perhaps it's because we always played with the international teams or the teams from the Giants of Europe disk.

...when I dug my old replay disks our recently I was surprised how many games we played with the International Teams. Probably the because the standard teams were a bit crap like you say.

I prefer playing against KO2 'keepers as there are more options when taking the 'keeper on in the box - couple this with the option to give a KO2 'keeper the same good judgement on lobs as the FW 'keepers and you have a fine balance IMHO.

I'd prefer he also had the same judgement in not suicidally running off his line at every opportunity. But then that's why the KO2 keeper is so easily manipulated.

...indeed. It would be interesting (particularly for a Player Manager point of view) to have 'keepers with varying attributes - e.g. ball stopping attributes, cross and lob judgement, the ability to catch rather than parry the ball etc. At the bottom of the scale you could have a complete numpty who lets lobs fly in unchallenged and runs behind his own goal line when players approach the by line at the edge of the six yard box

[lolafg]

Hello John !!

Just one word to ask when will come your future version ?

Thanks in advance !!