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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:24 pm
by Lee W
Rodolfo wrote:I can agree with most of that last post, except for the verb "abuse". I do not see any abusing in any behaviour, aspect or feature of the game, as long as is equally accesible (or even equally random) for both players that only use their joysticks and the keyboard usual keys.

using a bug to ones advantage is abusing it or exploiting it.

as for equally accessible, well... that's where personal morals about exploiting bugs for gain comes in, it's not a goal i want to score and in the spirit of fair play, because it is a bug, i would like the same consideration.

Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:00 pm
by iankay
Trapfix was only allowed in WC 2015 if both players agreed to it??
Not that it would have got me any more points, but I never put it on, no-one ever discussed it, and I think everyone used it against me, except maybe Andy. Still, more fool me, I will have to remember the rules more clearly next time.
I'll put my opinion on the goalie in "Discussion about bugfixes and enhancements for upcoming World Cups"

Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:12 pm
by dndn1011
Hi Ian, I would like to consider possible design solutions to the issue, so your thoughts here would be helpful.

Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:42 am
by thor
dndn1011 wrote:How hard is it to score this way in practice?

I would consider it easy. Most finishing moves are easy in practice mode, but it is much harder to get to the situation when there is a defending team in the way. :D

dndn1011 wrote:Is there a defence against it?

Manipulating the GK behind the line and finising with a narrow angle shot from within the penalty box is a subset of all the narrow angle goals. From a defensive point of view, we can break defending narrow angle goals into three types of situations.

1. The attacker has a clean run into the box and there is no defender within controllable reach of the attacker, or within controllable reach of the goal-line. Like all the other situations where the attacker has a clean run on goal, this is a 100% goal from a defensive point of view. The only way it doesn't become a goal is if the attacker makes a mistake. To defend these you need to not get in that situation in the first place. Like most goals in KO2,
defending occurs higher up the pitch. It is no different than an offside pass to number 9 to get him one on one with the goal keeper.

2. You have a defender within reach of the goal line, but not within reach of the attacker. Here you can attempt to defend the goal by saving it on the goalline, either by trapping or heading, like Gianni did in the example earlier. It is hard to do, but this happens more often than you think.

3. You have a defender within reach of the attacker. Here you can now choose to defend prior to the shot. As I described in the other thread, when defending in KO2 you have to pick your poison, so as a defender I try to force the attacker into the situation that has the lowest probability of a goal. To illustrate this, look at the 1-1 goal starting at 0:24 in this game between Dagh and Andy.

Dagh creates a situation where he can get a narrow angle goal, and Andy puts himself in a good position to prevent it. Dagh recognizes this and scores a goal that is much harder to execute (at least in my experience). In a sense, Andy did the best he could by making Dagh score the more difficult goal.

At 4:50 in the same video, you can see Andy attempts to get to a narrow angle shot, and Dagh uses a pretty standard defense to prevent the shot. As a bonus you can see the goal keeper running off to buy a hot dog...

At 7:05 there is another example that illustrates the battle between the defender and the attacker.

Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:09 pm
by l00k
dndn1011 wrote: It may have been closed in updates to the game.

We didn't play KO2 original as much but I'm 99.9% sure this was fixed in The Final Whistle which was the flavour I used to play with Olly and Charley.

I'd certainly not seen it until Dublin.

Sandro hit the post about 6 times using it and then Thor bagged so many I lost count. Probably my fault for playing 4-3-3

Also I'm quite sure it wasn't as easy to beat the goalie with a filthy lob in TFW either. Certainly not as easy as in Player Manager.

It broke my heart a bit in Dublin to see the keeper humbled so many times.


Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:09 pm
by Torchiador
Mick C wrote:Hello all,

Allow me to offer a quick introduction as I am new here - I've been Lee W's KO rival since the birth of the game, some 25 years now. Crikey, where did that time go? :) I look forward to meeting you in future tournaments I may be able to attend.

Anyway on this matter, FWIW I would most certainly vote FOR. Me and Lee have discovered probably all the quirks this game has to offer and I feel the 'GK behind the line' problem would be better out of the way. I have read the discussion thread and whilst I can empathise a little with those who'd prefer to keep it, I think the argument for removing carries more weight. This type of goal will still be scored if it's removed and at least you can say the goalkeeper wasn't off having his seventh cigarette of the game.

I know the game is full of less-than-realistic moves etc and goals that can be scored with almost certainty but at least those antics remain ON the pitch. Goalie lurking behind a goal is ludicrous and I understand the author concurs. Get rid. :)

So Lee even asked his friend to vote in this matter. A new user join the forum and his very first post is for a vote. A singularity.
Steve Camber, do you see I wasn't wrong saying that that a reasonable restriction was needed? And you even added him in the list of the votes.
The only player that was posting since few days ago was Wonka and we are cutting his post. I'm starting to think I prefer to read Wonka's posts than to see a farce like this. It is not a point it is a real player or not. it is a farce. You added the vote of a perfect unknown in the list. a vote that will be used to decide the way I have to play.
"The farce is strong in this one".
The difference between 10 years ago is that now I don't have any more time and above all willing and motivations to invest time in this.
For me Christmas is over.

Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:21 pm
by Steve Camber

Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:36 pm
by Lee W
Christ Gianni... Mick has been on about joining for a while, as long as i have been here and before, he tried many times when the registration was broken, I've mentioned it to several people including Steve... he would have been in Dublin if it weren't for work sending him to the U.S that week.. he has every intention in joining tournaments and i have kept him updated on every bit of news regarding the KOA but felt the desire to have his input on this as it would affect him just like the rest of us.

Opinions that differ from yours doesn't mean it's a farce.

and for the record... here's me n mick playing kick off some time back, which we've been doing every thursday for 25 years... does that give him or meless right to his opinion than anyone else?

Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:36 pm
by Rodolfo
Call it vote, poll, survey or whatever, it is highly unusual having a new user with just one post pushing in a specific direction that may affect the whole KOA.

Besides that, I know I have been a little disconnected in the last year, but what happened in Dublin? What started this tsunami of reforms? Were so many really so unhappy with things as they were one month ago?

I blame Pedro :D

Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:50 pm
by l00k
I've changed my position. I'm now on the fence.

To be honest I'm more disgusted with filthy lobbing than wayward keepers :p

Seriously though. You need skill to get into this keeper exploit zone.

Also there must be an equal number of ways to prevent attacks that lead to these opertunities.

Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:01 pm
by dndn1011
I think that the worst thing that can happen is that we stop talking because we are all too precious about things. We all know where that leads. I had to struggle to let go of many things in coming to terms with how fans play my games. Most played a cracked early version with bugs. The PBD abhorration. Hacks. Other stuff.

Preciousness, from both sides, caused me to have nothing to do with the KOA for more than 10 years, and I wrote the damned game. In my honest opinion, the best thing for Kick Off is to grow the community and our appreciation of each other and our different ways of playing the game. We need to be able to talk about the features and embrace any who express their opinions in a friendly way.

This is very different from making official decisions about competition rules, and is not what I see going on here. We should place decorum above preciousness because otherwise we will scare off outsiders, and that will not be good for anyone.

And I should add, there is currently no agreed method by which decisions are made, if I understand correctly. There should be a constitution, which sets out how competitions are run and how the rules are decided, just as with any sport.

I know that this is not a very large community, but it is still a community, and when you add together how much everyone spends every year to be part of that community in travel and accommodation costs, it is no joke. We need to respect that and have a fair way of making important decisions.

Gianni, you know I respect you a great deal as a player of Kick Off. I know as well that you have strong feelings about the way the game should be played. These things are right and proper. I think you are reacting to a justified fear that important decisions might be made which impact you, but are not made in a fair way. I can certainly understand this, although I really do not think that is what is going on here.

A good way to help remove such fears and ensure that we can discuss the future of the competitions effectively is to set up a constitution that sets out how rule changes become official. It is time; in fact it is way overdue.

Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:54 am
by Danny D
moderators, I echo what Dino has just said. Currently we are a bunch of headless chickens.

It's in our best interests to lock this, draw up a constitution and then revisit and make a decision.

Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:10 am
by Binary
kofoed wrote:What I am afraid of is that when you take away, or alter a method of scoring then that gives the attacker one less option and it makes it easier for the defender as he can concentrate on stopping other moves.

I totally agree with this.

I was already very negatively impressed with the amount of players in the WC who played lockout EVERY SINGLE TIME they lost the ball, and went 4-2-4 (or was it falcon?!) otherwise.

What happened in the last 6 years that made people want to park the friggin' Mourinho bus instead of playing ball?!