Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Binary » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:12 am

Rodolfo wrote:I blame Pedro :D


I'm as shocked as you bro :(
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Steve Camber » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:32 am

Danny D wrote:moderators, I echo what Dino has just said. Currently we are a bunch of headless chickens.

It's in our best interests to lock this, draw up a constitution and then revisit and make a decision.

This isn't a decision, it's a discussion.
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Freshmaker » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:54 am

What Camber said; we're simply discussing a topic, not making decisions.

I'll be honest enough to admit that I'm switching between different stances on this topic.

On the one side I hate seeing the goalie running behind the line, even through the net, it just doesn't make sense.

On the other side, I don't want us to alter gameplay.

But then again, some are vocal for having Trapfix set as standard, or at least thinks it's a good compromise (I've even said so myself about the compromise, though I don't think so anymore...), while absolutely not wanna see the goalie-bug fixed. And this is where I get lost.
The Trapfix, even with Camber's tweak to it after the 2011-wc, is a huge alteration to the gameplay. But that you want. And the trap-slide hasn't even been halfway confirmed as a bug, from what I can understand it's been explained as a feature. But fuck that, let's remove it using the Trapfix.
But... One of the most obvious bugs of the game, nonono, keep it in, 'cause I want my 99,9 % scoring-chance, I don't wanna see it reduced to somewhere between 80 and 90 %.

I'll say this again:

If we start removing bugs we can't pick and choose our favorite bugs to keep, and those we want out. That is not good form. As easy as that. We either remove all or we keep all. At least when it comes to bugs having an impact on gameplay.
And how on earth can one, with fairness, say no to removing bugs, while still wanting to impose changes not related to bugs, who definitely affect gameplay (Autoslide, Trapfix, banning (kick off) lobs)...

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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:42 pm

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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby r.cross » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:51 pm

iankay wrote:Trapfix was only allowed in WC 2015 if both players agreed to it??
Not that it would have got me any more points, but I never put it on, no-one ever discussed it, and I think everyone used it against me, except maybe Andy.


Well I didn't. And without knowing I'm almost certain that I (and as you mentioned Andy) were not the only ones. Robert was the only one who asked me to activate it during the tourney and I politely declined as I prefer the original mechanism. (As he did when I asked him to deactivate AUTOFIX instead :mrgreen: ).
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby dndn1011 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:32 pm

Binary wrote:AGAINST

Will explain it in just 2 quotes:

Steve Camber wrote:Here the goalie can be seen abandoning his goal and leaving the playing area allowing an easy goal to be scored.


I can't score this goal, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only KOAer in this situation. If you start taking away the "easy" goals you will be making the game better for the stars, and worse for the lowbies. Might as well start the WC on the quarter finals...

Torchiador wrote:This vote has been suggested to change the original gamplay. This change denies to score a specific goal.
One of the prerogatives of the KOA is to preserve the game in a way that every player must be able to train with the 2 original KickOff2 disk


This. 1000 x this. Do we want newcomers to arrive at a world cup/local tournament and realize not even their "easy" goals can be scored?

This is absurd, we shouldn't even be debating this.


Please refrain from calling discussions absurd. That's not where we want to go is it? I'll explain why it is not absurd:

The argument assumes that there is such a thing as an "Original Kick Off 2 disk". There isn't. Here's what there is:

1) An early release that was cracked (Oracle) that spread around like wildfire. There is no guarantee that it behaves the same way as the released game (this would need to be researched).

2) The version without the world cup competition (first release)

3) The version with the world cup competition, that probably also included bug fixes

4) Any updated versions after this which I do not recall

5) The Final Whistle, which despite not being in favor at the KOA is a version commonly played by people and we have at least one case of people who had never seen the GK bug before, because it was not in FW

6) 'Official cracks' where ANCO re-released the game without my permission and had it cracked rather than having to go through me (yes, seriously)

So, which is it to be? To turn your argument around, do we want newcomers who had a version of KO2 beyond 1.4/Oracle and who never saw the bugs to be put off because they can't enjoy the game they remember?

What do we learn from this? We all have big egos. We all want it *our* way. Everyone wants the version they remember, I want the version I designed... come on, to be frank it's time to mature a bit an realise that there is no gold standard version of KO2.

What we have is a fragmented fan base, fragmented because the original work become fragmented. These days this would not happen.

Because of piracy, because of the difficulty up updating the game, because some updates cost money so not everyone went for them, because hackers messed with the code and even I'll go so far as to say because the author of the game did not know how to handle this mess (and ANCO, and Sensible Soccer blah blah) we have chaos. So we have a choice:

1) Continue with the chaos so we can preserve our own individual visions

or

2) Bring it all together.

I think it would be wise to recognise that we need to do 2) if we don't want it all to fall apart eventually, and that in order to do 2) we must encourage discussion, not shut it down.

All problems are solvable, if you go about it the right way. I'll be frank, I'd like to work at fixing the problems because now that I am trying to enjoy and appreciate my work in making KO2 and also enjoying the community that surrounds it, I'd like to take care of the design and try to resolve what is for me an, utterly soul destroying situation, as if I had painted a masterpiece, but have to keep looking at it splashed with paint all the time, and with fans being very attached to those specks of paint.

Right now, all that is happening is a discussion. I think we should all be free to say how we feel, and it is especially important that we welcome new people without scaring them off. And in this sense it is all or nothing...

If we choose 2) then no subject should be taboo. Surely we all want the same thing, right? A healthy community? Let's all of us put the community ahead of ourselves then.
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Re: Proposal - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Freshmaker » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:12 pm

Well put Dino.
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Danny D » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:55 pm

Steve Camber wrote:
Danny D wrote:moderators, I echo what Dino has just said. Currently we are a bunch of headless chickens.

It's in our best interests to lock this, draw up a constitution and then revisit and make a decision.

This isn't a decision, it's a discussion.


You are correct of course Steve ,my bad :) . Discuss first, then decide.
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Mick C » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:28 am

I understand having attended no tournaments doesn't necessarily entitle me to a vote on potentially changing the game for all, so if you want to sideline my choice, do so, or make it worth half a vote or something. I really really don't mind - I'll play with the goalie fecking off for a dump but due to finding it daft I would rather it be fixed, for all concerned. Maybe we should have a poll about me participating in a poll ;)

Also, I would like to add that in the picture Lee posted, I am the guy in the green top, not the cat.
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Freshmaker » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:32 am

Mick C wrote: Maybe we should have a poll about me participating in a poll ;)

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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Lee W » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:06 pm

Mick C wrote:I understand having attended no tournaments doesn't necessarily entitle me to a vote on potentially changing the game for all, so if you want to sideline my choice, do so, or make it worth half a vote or something. I really really don't mind - I'll play with the goalie fecking off for a dump but due to finding it daft I would rather it be fixed, for all concerned. Maybe we should have a poll about me participating in a poll ;)

Also, I would like to add that in the picture Lee posted, I am the guy in the green top, not the cat.


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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby Robert Swift » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:50 pm

100% of goals in Kick Off occur due to an imperfection of the keeper.

- The keeper rushes about like Bruce Grobbelaar.
- Despite being able to use his hands the keeper can't catch the ball above shoulder height, allowing BLC goals
- The keeper has a short right arm meaning it's quite easy to score with diagonal shots on the left post.
- The keeper runs occasionally into the goal.
- The keeper won't save any shots between shoulder height and the bar.
- If you kick a loose ball as the keeper is about to pick it up it goes through(?) his body.
- If you put enough swerve on a shot he actually dives the wrong way.
- If you move even slightly sideways before shooting the keeper is incapable of saving an easy shot.

Oddly enough, new players still find it IMPOSSIBLE TO SCORE at this game!! Why? Because the keeper has lightning reflexes and rushes out at the speed of Usain Bolt to snatch the ball away from you.

ONLY by learning keeper weaknesses (which are essentially game exploits) can you learn to score in Kick Off. That is the very essence of the game. To be a 'good player' is to learn to exploit these faults and practice at it.

You wan't a keeper that has all the above faults removed? Play Final Whistle. But you'll be playing on your own. That game is perfect and boring.

Proposals to ban goals - and that's what this is, dressed up as a 'keeper bug fix' - are generally put forward by players that don't know how to score them or prevent them. It's an attempt by the weak to dominate the strong.

I hate the BLC. I can't do them. Would I enjoy beating John H 5-0 with his BLC disabled? No, actually. What would it prove? It would prove I was a coward.

I hate lobs. I am crap at them. Would I enjoy beating Steve Camber 5-0 with lobs disabled? No, actually. What would it prove? It would prove I was a coward.

I hate Kick Off Routines. Would I enjoy beating Knut Loite with KO Lobs disabled? Yes. Sorry no, actually. It would prove I was a coward.

Man up, people.
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Re: Discussion - Keeping the goalie on the pitch

Postby l00k » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:54 pm

I don't think Final Whistle is boring. There are less goals but it's far from boring
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