Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attenders

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Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attenders

Postby Torchiador » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:08 pm

I'm just a ambassador, don't shoot the messenger!

Lorenzo was saying that: considering that the ranking point assigned in a tournament depend on tournament attendance and considering that this world cup isn't the most crowed world cup we had so far, why to not price the attenders using a sort of X2 factor?

If you ask me, I do think that it is a knife with 2 sides blade, because the "X2" is also to be considered as negative: who will lose, will lose twice the RPs.

Considering that in my opinion that a sort of incentive could be a good idea, I think that the best thing, instead to do a X2 factor, could be to give a juicy World cup bonus to each player who attend the world cup.
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby Steve Camber » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:19 pm

Great idea! Please backdate all the way back to the first world cup :)
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Sv: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby Freshmaker » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:13 pm

wins should give x2, losses just x1. Easy. And no backdating. Rules change all over, with no backdating.
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby alkis21 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:43 pm

You are incorrectly assuming that people give a crap about the rankings. If anyone loves the points so much that it will make them book a ticket to Austria, I'll gladly lose to them 10-0 on purpose. But I'm pretty sure that's no motivation to anyone.
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby durban » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:46 pm

I love the rankings...not seen them in a while mind ;)

To be honest guys not sure the idea will work, but perhaps its worth more discussion.

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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby Torchiador » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:46 am

alkis21 wrote:You are incorrectly assuming that people give a crap about the rankings. If anyone loves the points so much that it will make them book a ticket to Austria, I'll gladly lose to them 10-0 on purpose. But I'm pretty sure that's no motivation to anyone.


Alkis, I think you are wrong, I think that people care about ranking. many of them don't write anything but, for example Lorenzo C would die knowing that Lorenzo L could jump over him in the ranking.
People always looks at the ranking after a big tournament, in particular after the world cup. I'm sure that much people look at alkis.org after you update your masterpiece every year and I'm sure that you have many visitors also during the year. Ok, surely youporn has more visitors, but please do not forget we are speaking of a 23 years old game. don't forget this is a living miracle. even if this year we will not 30 or 50. It is just a miracle!

"I'll gladly lose to them 10-0 on purpose" I don't know why, but a little voice inside me is saying that you aren't completely sincere in this sentence... Anyway I buy a ticket for your ranking points, It will be very kind from you to be a man of his word!
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:55 am

Haha.. If you give me a signed paper from someone who has NOT confirmed his presence in the world cup yet, saying

"I am not going to Voitsberg because I am afraid of losing ranking points. I will go if you guarantee that I will get plenty of them."

then I will gladly commit to losing 10-0 to him in the first round, which holds practically no meaning this year anyway. But I am confident that, even if some people care about the rankings, nobody is actually avoiding the world cup because of them. Perhaps some people hate losing matches, but not losing points.

Seriously though, guys, do we even want such people in our lives? Enough to change our rules to promote this shameful way of thinking? If those people exist, they are entirely missing the point of the Kick Off Association and they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned. Caring for victories and ranking points is one thing, actually not going to a world cup due to them is a disgrace.
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby Torchiador » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:25 am

Don't make me do names...
it isn't kind to speak against people who isn't able to defend themselves.
Anyway, probably you had noticed that in Milan it is long times that we don't do local small kitchen tournaments.
Have you got any idea about the "WHY"? Do you believe it is because I don't like to have people at home any more?
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby durban » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:29 am

I have always liked the rankings simply because it makes us look very professional and it gives us some sense of purpose. I am a big supporter of them (even if I can't admit to understanding some of the rules) and a BIG supporter of the people who look after them for us!

I am with Alkis on this, if people are only going to a tournament to play for ranking points then there is a problem with the world.


The ranking is just an addon to the KOA, its like a Firefox MOD that makes things a little more interesting...but without it Firefox would work the same!

the World Cup is about getting together and meeting friends...and nowadays these friends are people you have probably spend more quality time with than most others in your life...so they are true friends...I certainly don't go around to my friends house for a beer provided he makes things better for me by offering me more peanuts than usual.....and I woudln't go to the world cup for ten times the ranking points...I go for the beer and for my friends...If we happen to have a massive bag of peanuts then great that will be exceelent, if we have no peanuts then I will still be there...
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:50 am

OK Gianni, I believe you. If you say there are players who care about the rankings enough to miss a tournament or the world cup for fear of losing some, I'm sure you are basing it on things you've heard from specific people.

But I'll be damned if we are going to change the rankings system for those people. If we do, then we basically break it. If we say that one tournament gives more ranking points than a different one with the same number of people, then we are creating fake ranking points and the whole thing is pointless. We might as well start saying to people, "come to the tournament and I'll give you 500 points". Will there be any point in even having a rankings system after that?

I now look at the Rankings and think, "Ektoras has 1872 points, that means he got better results in the tournaments he attended than George, who has 1311". Do we really wanna start thinking, "Yeah, he has more points than him, but he attended that bogus tournament that doubled his points"? And where do we draw the line? What if people start demanding for their local tournaments to get that special treatment, or else they won't attend?
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby durban » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:13 am

100% agree with the above post.

Although I do believe Lorenzo's suggestion was altruistic, and only really to make the tournament feel a bit bigger, not to divide the KOA on ranking as such.
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby Torchiador » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:28 pm

let me clarify that it isn't just because of ranking points but it is because of bad loser attitude.
The Ranking points have surely an influence but they are not the reason, the reason is the bad loser attitude.
I completely agree with you, I don't want to waste in any way the ranking and his purpose, simply, to make Rodolfo's voice, this world cup, will have a smaller impact on the ranking respect the London International 2006 in Luton. Of course the Holy Shield is not assigned in Luton tournament. but this is a fact.

Now I would like to change the view. a bit wider.
The ranking is an artefact that try order the players from the strongest to the weakest.
Although it isn't perfect, it is a very good way to list players even if they don't face each other so often.
One of the biggest factor that influence how to assign ranking points is the number of players who attend the specific tournament.
Because "the biggest is the tournament, the hardest is the tournament".
So it is assumed as good the fact that the number of players gives also the hardness of the tournament.
Well, in my opinion I think that there is a factor that the ranking isn't provided for.
The tension that the world cup gives is something that none of local tournaments or international tournaments can give.
Many players have won against other players but at the world cup it is completely different. Just think the challenge between me and Spyros. I won most of our matches but when it really mattered he had an extra gear or maybe I had the handbrake pulled up. because of the world cup factor. the tension factor. And I'm sure that there are dozens of similar situations that confirm what I'm saying.
A world cup is always hard, no matter how far.
Another point I see is that, thanks to the ranking points that belong to each player, it would be possible also to establish the stiffness of a specific tournament.
A direct comparison between players (and ranking points) is done each match, so the thing could seem fair already, but if you figure out a tournament with 8 players that are over 1600 RPs and one is 600, well, I think that the overall average of RPs should influence the assignation (and subtraction) of ranking point. I mean that a breve heart that face a cage of hungry lions should be (in some way) shielded. On the other side, It is't so easy to gather lions, so if a tournament has got an high average of ranking points. It should also award with more ranking points.
In my opinion, in this way the Ranking would assume a new depth, the RP would be assigned also in relation to the quality of the tournament not only in relation to the number of players.
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Re: Lorenzo's idea: a special RPs boost for world cup attend

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:55 pm

Gianni, either you are lacking sleep because of the baby or I am (or maybe both of us), because I do not understand large parts of your post.

Torchiador wrote:One of the biggest factor that influence how to assign ranking points is the number of players who attend the specific tournament.
Because "the biggest is the tournament, the hardest is the tournament".
So it is assumed as good the fact that the number of players gives also the hardness of the tournament.


That's incorrect. The tournament coefficient is bigger for bigger tournaments, not because they are considered harder, but because they are considered more important. The Milan kitchen tournaments were much harder than, say, the German champs. But we think that the bigger the gathering, the more important it is, no matter how good the participants are. Usually big tournaments were national champs, or international gatherings, so more points should be awarded for them. Which brings me to...

Well, in my opinion I think that there is a factor that the ranking isn't provided for.
The tension that the world cup gives is something that none of local tournaments or international tournaments can give.


Big tournaments equal big tension. World cups are normally the biggest tournaments we have. World cups are awarded more ranking points than any tournament, ergo, tension is very much considered in the rankings!

Another point I see is that, thanks to the ranking points that belong to each player, it would be possible also to establish the stiffness of a specific tournament. (...) In my opinion, in this way the Ranking would assume a new depth, the RP would be assigned also in relation to the quality of the tournament not only in relation to the number of players.


But surely you know that the rankings already do that? The ranking points won or lost depend on two factors: how many people are in it, which is the tournament coefficient, and the ranking points of the people who are in it, which determines how many points are "for grabs". So the hypothetical 600pt player that you mention has a chance of winning big if he beats those 1600pt players. You can win many more ranking points in a hard tournament full of 1600pt players, than in an easy one with 800pt players, which is definite proof that the quality of the players is very much a factor when rankings are calculated. Are you suggesting that give these tournaments an even bigger coefficient? Well, first of all, that would send the wrong message to players like the ones in Koenigswinter, who are already playing for very few points - is devaluing them even more the right way to go? Second, are you forgetting that everything works on a "what someone earns, someone else loses" basis? If we increase the coefficient of that hypothetical tournament you mention, 600pt players will normally end up losing bigger.

I'm all for making a change. But you (you, as in 'all of you', not you Gianni) are going to need to be a lot more specific than that, because what I read so far is based on false assumptions. Please answer me these two questions:

1) What would you like to change in the way the Rankings are calculated?

2) How do you propose that we change it?

For example, we have an unprecedented problem in our hands this year: a very small world cup. This year's world cup will have a smaller tournament coefficient than the 2009 London International. Is that what is bugging people? If that is the case, we can discuss it. It is certainly bugging me.

For those of you who are not sure what the tournament coefficient is:
It's a factor that determines how 'important' a tournament is based on its size, assuming a maximum of 100% (32 players or more, which is an average world cup). With their August ranking points, when Steve Camber beat Steve Ellesmore 7-2 in the UK champs, he was awarded 50 points. However, as that result was achieved in a 9 player tournament, the coefficient was 28%, so the points that were actually given were 14. But in a normal sized world cup, he'd get 50.


So, allow me to start with suggesting a change:

1) What would you like to change in the way the Rankings are calculated?
I don't like the idea of a "less important world cup" just because it has less players. Hell, the same people who won the first three medals two years ago in Birmingham will be there, so who says winning it will be of less importance? Beating Gianni in Voitsberg 2013 should not give a player less points than Voitsberg 2009!

2) How do you propose that we change it?
I propose that the tournament coefficient for all world cups hereinafter is 100% by default, regardless of the number of attendees.

What do you think? I think that is makes much more sense and is much more justified than the 'x2 factor' idea.
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