Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby coldie » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:33 am

Format would be fine (with or without a draw)

Big Screen games should be available all the time (why not having some games over big Screen on saturday? )
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:44 am

Mark, here is the problem with your idea.

Say, after Day 1 the first 8 players are the following:

1. Gianni T
2. Andy G
3. Alkis P
4. Oliver St
5. Steve C
6. Robert S
7. Michael Ma
8. Rodolfo M

Say the after the draw , they are put into Round 2 groups as such:

Group B: Gianni T, Steve C
Group C: Oliver St, Robert S
Group D: Andy G, Michale Ma
Group E: Alkis P, Rodolfo M

Let's assume that the players who got the first four places on Saturday win their Round 2 groups and the quarter finals. The semi finals will then be:

Gianni T - Andy G
Alkis P - Oliver St

Why should the obviously two best players of the tournament, who finished first in the league and kept winning from there, be forced to play in the semis instead of the final?

You might argue that things never go 100% as expected, but that doesn't mean that we must not design a format that works flawlessly in case they do. Otherwise you are just punishing people for winning. The format must be designed so that if people keep beating the ones seeded below them, the quarter finals should be R1-R8, R2-R7, R3-R6, R4-R5 and then the semi finals R1-R4, R2-R3. This year we have the golden opportunity to make everything fair because the risk of incorrect seeding no longer exists, so people will only have themselves to blame for their placement. Why would we pass on that opportunity?
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby Freshmaker » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:26 pm

Let's make "The Friday Night Draw" a "Friday Night Presentation"
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby Torchiador » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:51 pm

I agree with Alkis.
@ our Durban: I understand that the draw is entertaining and I understand also your point about the sneaky Italians, (you caught me! in fact I'll do my best to compete with Lorenzo L to face him in the silver cup final though!) but I think that Alkis argued very well the matter.
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:56 pm

I concur about the Italian bastards, I have solid proof that Gianni wins every match on purpose in order to get an easy knockout every single year (me).

Jorn's idea about a Friday night presentation doesn't sound half bad!
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby durban » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:08 pm

Im lost as to how Alkis's scenario is anything but random sorry?!

So what we are saying is that we have to ensure that whoever finishes first and second in the league cannot play until the final?

I understand that I think, but in real football they never do this (but they also do not have a league I guess)

If we were not having the league the rankings would dictate who plays where, is the same scenario put in place for the normal format then (I don't think it is but apologies if I have overlooked this!)

I have no issues with not having a draw, I just thought it would be simple and give people that friday night feeling on Saturday, and to be honest is there that much of a difference between the top 4 to say that just because one player plays well and finishes #1 on a Sat means he is better than someone who was hungover (Andy) and finished 4th?

But I am just one voice, I don't care how its formatted as long as it works and if you want to ensure the top 2 play in the final (presuming they both make it) then thats fine mate :)
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:26 pm

durban wrote:I understand that I think, but in real football they never do this (but they also do not have a league I guess)


Exactly. You do the best you can with what you have. Likewise, in the previous years, we had four groups in Day 1, so we could do nothing to ensure that the top two players would not face each other in the semis -if they kept winning-, but we COULD ensure that the top four would not face each other in the quarter finals. In 2005, we had so many players that they were divided into 8 groups, so we couldn't even do that.

It s true that in football they are not very strict about these things, not on a round-by-round basis, however you will see it in sports where the team differences are much bigger, such as basketball. That has always been my inspiration when designing KO2 WC formats, because the team strengths are very similar. Whereas Iraq has a realistic chance (albeit small) to draw against Argentina in football, you just know that Spain (Gianni) will beat Tunisia (Kostas) 99 times out of 100.

is there that much of a difference between the top 4 to say that just because one player plays well and finishes #1 on a Sat means he is better than someone who was hungover (Andy) and finished 4th?


Maybe not, but that's not the point. The point is to design a format that pairs up people according to their accomplishments, in order to give them incentive to win. Otherwise, no seedings are ever needed, we might as well just draw everyone randomly.
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby durban » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:27 pm

Thanks Alkis I understand completely and agree with you, why leave things to random when we can at least guide fate :)

I agree with your suggestion in this case...I may just keep my eyes closed on Sat night after the league is finished so its a surprise for me on Sunday morning haha ;)
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby Pansen » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:46 pm

What Alkis, Gianni, Rodolfo, Jorn and Mark said!

What a pity a cannot make it to the Presentation on Friday.
But lucky I am, cause I won´t miss any legendary draw....


So as I understand from Alkis point of view with tiny new thoughts...

Round 1: All players in one group (Group A), 1 leg round.
Each player will at least once sitting in front of the big screen. Match could be marked bold or undelined...or yellow or whatever...

A17,A18,A19,A20 play the SOS on big screen...

after that: relaxing in a spa...

Round 2:

Group B: A1, A6, A9, A14, (A17 again?
Group C: A2, A5, A10, A13, (A18 again?
Group D: A3, A8, A11, A16, (A19 again?
Group E: A4, A7, A12, A15, (A20 again?

World Cup Quarter Finals, 2 legs round:
WQF1: B1-D2
WQF2: C1-E2
WQF3: D1-B2
WQF4: E1-C2

World Cup Semi Finals, 2 legs round:
WSF1: WQF1-WQF3
WSF2: WQF2-WQF4

World Cup Final, 2 legs round:
WF: Winner WSF1-Winner WSF2

Word Cup 3rd Place, 1 leg

Silver Cup Semi Finals, 2 legs round:
SSF1: B3-D3
SSF2: C3-E3

Silver Cup Final, 1 leg round:
SF: Winner SSF1-Winner SSF2

Silver Cup 3rd Place, 1 leg


To think about:
A13 to Axx (there will be drop outs after the SOS on Saturday I think), all playing in one group, 1 leg round to find the final standing...

After that: Big legendary Ceremony and drinking in a pub!


Sounds perfect to me!
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby alkis21 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:29 am

Thanks Jorg, I'm very glad you approve. With 11 consecutive world cups, you are one of the most experienced attendees so your feedback is very important!

Pansen wrote:Each player will at least once sitting in front of the big screen. Match could be marked bold or undelined...or yellow or whatever...


I think that's a great idea, perhaps not too many matches as people want to see the standings on the big screen often but one match per player should work! Michael, can we do this?

A17,A18,A19,A20 play the SOS on big screen...


Sure, let's call this the "Shame preliminary round"!

Group B: A1, A6, A9, A14, (A17 again?)
Group C: A2, A5, A10, A13, (A18 again?)
Group D: A3, A8, A11, A16, (A19 again?)
Group E: A4, A7, A12, A15, (A20 again?)


Why not? I know it seems silly to have them continue playing after the game of shame, but there's no harm done.

To think about:
A13 to Axx (there will be drop outs after the SOS on Saturday I think), all playing in one group, 1 leg round to find the final standing...


The problem is, that would mean less matches for everyone... that's why we are not dividing the players into smaller groups/cups in Round 2, there's just too few of us for that.
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby Torchiador » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:07 am

alkis21 wrote:Pansen wrote:
Each player will at least once sitting in front of the big screen. Match could be marked bold or undelined...or yellow or whatever...


I think that's a great idea, perhaps not too many matches as people want to see the standings on the big screen often but one match per player should work! Michael, can we do this?


It would be a nice idea but I think that it would introduce some logistic problems. If you remember, usually when you connect a WindowsXP laptop to a projector, you have to stay 5 minutes with fingers crossed hoping it recognizes that. after that you should set in the proper resolution, according with projector specifics. If you change input. usually you have to redo the procedure. With the amiga you have to set also the audio, long cables/ problems and pray for the RGB video output is still running. btw guy, usually do you see how much time is required to set up the amiga station for the big screen games? usually you hear organizers swearing like troopers in to do this. Seen the match(es), you should come back to display the standing of the tournament with laptop, and there I expect many Saints falling down the Heaven, hit by organizers swearing again.
Let me say that I always appreciate to see the crowd behind some amiga in some tense game for some specific position/long standing rivals and always I join the crowd to watch such matches.

this is just my humble opinion as bad world cup organizer, if Michael feels/knows he can handle this with no problems, you are welcome!
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby Oliver St » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:11 am

Me in the semis? WTF :lol: ?
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Re: Kick Off 2 WC 2013: Format discussion

Postby Rodolfo » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:18 am

Torchiador wrote:(...) and there I expect many Saints falling down the Heaven, hit by organizers swearing again.



:lol:


Torchiador wrote:Let me say that I always appreciate to see the crowd behind some amiga in some tense game for some specific position/long standing rivals and always I join the crowd to watch such matches.



Me too!
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