12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

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Torchiador
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12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Torchiador » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:58 pm

If you read with attention my last post, you should notice that the trapfix has a determinant weight in the change of the gameplay also in attack, allowing to reproduce routines more easily as it simplify all the procedure and the risks to trap the ball. The trapfix isn't just a matter of defence.
Steve says it is a bug and for me there is no question. it is a bug.
But "the goal keeper that runs to cheer the photographers" bug is actually the same nature of bug.
Who don't know how to approach the box to kid the goalkeeper hate this bug.
The point is that bug is more easy to exploit and for the most of the koaers the opinion about this bug is quite different respect the trapping system.
To master the bugged trapping system is more hard, and having the easy way, many prefer the easy way.
Just for the record Dino removed the goal keeper bug in Final Whistle. but the fix for the trapping system wasn't introduced though. Probably a bug that he liked and left untouched there?
The point is that, as said by Alkis, although Final Whistle was a game programmed really better than kick off, we didn't like it, because there was the lack of bugs that we liked so much to exploit!
the delicate equilibrium was broken. we preferred the old bugged one.
It was said that the gameplay should remain the same for tournaments.allowing everyone who played the original, to have no handicap playing an official tournament.
the PBDMIX is coherent with that statement (both PBD are 1990 Kick Off 1.2 and 1.4 both arrived in official game game shops) and don't forget that, like the PBDMIX, the PBD version of KO2 allows natively the 2 different setting in fact you play NOPBD outside the box and PBD inside the box.
The trapfix is not coherent with that statement. what would happen for a new player who master the bugged trapping system? We aren't speaking of specific settings. we are speaking about of the core of kick off: the gameplay. the trap fix is whole change of the in game challenge. it is a different game. as it would be to fix the goal keeper.
As said by Alkis, watching behind, I see we did some mistakes but now is too late to make a step back, but at least we can vote on that.
In these years of votes, I never voted against o pro trapfix. I think this time I will vote.
I remember I was one of the biggest supporter of the trapfix but I always said that a very deep test should be done to see about the way the fix could change the game. I don't think I took the matter easy, simply think that it was a very insidious change to be discovered, probably, improving and going deep in the challenge of the ball, the thing come out by little steps.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Freshmaker » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:05 am

It seems that Gianni has understood what I mean about the "keeper-bug". The rest of Giannis post also makes perfect sense to me, so I simply go with What Gianni Said.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby durban » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:50 am

I do like the bit about how we don't play final whistle because there aren't enough bugs...haha never thought of it that way...class :)
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Bounty Bob » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:31 pm

I've always felt that the bugs and quirks were part of what made KO2 such a classic. Who didn't crack up the first time their player ran down the other end of the pitch to take a corner? Who didn't instantly hit replay the first time they scored when the goalkeeper had run behind the line and through the side of the goal? Who didn't think it was awesome the first time one of their players came back after getting red carded?
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby alkis21 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:50 pm

It may sound funny but it's absolutely true: The attempt to 'fix' all the goalkeeper's and defense weaknesses (letting in lobs, chasing the opponent around the box, jumping behind the net, allowing the attacker to be ridiculously offside) resulted to a very boring game called Final Whistle. A game where you could still score plenty of goals, but of much less varied nature. Most of the weaknesses in KO2 were not intentional (nobody could be good enough to properly beta test the keeper and defense in just a few months!) but they made the game what it is. It's good that Steve removed many bugs such as the corner kick, the false throw-in, the sub stealing etc. but any attempts to 'fix' the gameplay may reduce the fun factor considerably.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby durban » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Do we all love each other now?!

:)

Lets just play KO2.....
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby goonergaz » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:25 pm

yes - but with or without trapfix!? :lol:
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Freshmaker » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:50 pm

Not wanting to stir things up, but simply because I wonder; Why are some of you saying that since we've introduced the Trapfix, we can't go back on it, but we should at least vote for it?
I don't get it... What's the problem with going back on it? Now, I know there are people who are very accustomed to playing the game with Trapfix ON, but should that change anything? I mean... From what I read in these later posts, there is a visible understanding and agreement on the fact that we're playing KO2, not Final Whistle, and most certainly not Fifa og PES. So what's the problem?

And Alkis, I fully understand what you mean about not removing any goals (the keeper-bug), but it's the same to me with the Trapfix, just in a wider view. My experiences from B'ham last year, was that many of my attacks was stopped, simply due to the Trapfix, meaning that many of my goals was also stopped. They was just stopped earlier... If that makes any sense.
And I'd rather have the Keeper-bug removed, than having the Trapfix on, because the Keeper-bug just isn't very real-like. That a player falls over (slides) in a 1 on 1 fight vs an opponent, makes more sense than the keeper running behind the goal-line and through the net... I'm trying to make a point.
I don't think it's fair, in any way, to have some bugs removed, because they don't appeal to some people, while leaving others, more ridicoulus ones, still in the game. We've even removed a bug that, if I understand it correctly, is NOT a bug, just because it didn't look smart (Autoslides), while leaving totally lame bugs IN...?

And yeah, as Mark said; let's just play KO2... ;)
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby alkis21 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:37 pm

Freshmaker wrote:Not wanting to stir things up, but simply because I wonder; Why are some of you saying that since we've introduced the Trapfix, we can't go back on it, but we should at least vote for it?
I don't get it... What's the problem with going back on it?


What I mean is that a can of worms was opened and now we can't turn back time and close it. Obviously if enough people are convinced then they will vote against it and we won't have it in the world cup. But I don't see it ever being banned from the UK Champs for instance. Plus because the 'no gameplay changes' argument is no longer valid, we'll probably face another round of goal banning, lobs preventing, keeper altering suggestions.

And Alkis, I fully understand what you mean about not removing any goals (the keeper-bug), but it's the same to me with the Trapfix, just in a wider view.


And there's the can from where the worms... there's the worm exiting the... there's your can worming... well you get the damn idea.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Freshmaker » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:13 pm

Ah. Suddenly it all makes sense. :) Ok, I understand what you're saying, and I agree. :)
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby gdh82 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:26 pm

Torchiador wrote:It was said that the gameplay should remain the same for tournaments.allowing everyone who played the original, to have no handicap playing an official tournament.
the PBDMIX is coherent with that statement (both PBD are 1990 Kick Off 1.2 and 1.4 both arrived in official game game shops) and don't forget that, like the PBDMIX, the PBD version of KO2 allows natively the 2 different setting in fact you play NOPBD outside the box and PBD inside the box.



I completely agree Gianni and have always understood the justification for PBD. The fact remains, however, that PBD is a change in gameplay for NOPBD players and not the game I and others grew up with. I say this not to be disagreeable or anti-PBD in the slightest. It is what it is. I actually like the fact there is another version of dribbling and may even convert one day! :)

I say it because it undermines the outdated idea that KO2CV (pre trapfix) is "the game we grew up with". Yet we continue to play that card time and time again. Even those who dislike trapfix, conveniently drop this line when they admit to preferring autofix. Nothing wrong at all in being selective about our preferences of course. Still, if the world doesn't come to an end in 2012, could we at least put an end to the myth that KO2CV "is the game we grew up with"! Slidefixes have been with us for around 5 years but it still wasn't true before that. Besides, KO2CV is infinitely better anyway! 8)

Hopefully I'm not speaking too soon but I'm glad to see this thread getting back on track. Debate threads of this kind although well intentioned are aways treacherous imo. The vote will ultimately do the real talking anyway. Without sounding too idealistic, I remain hopeful that our shared passion for KO2 and the fun of the gathering will overcome these setting differences, at least for the vast majority of us.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby Bounty Bob » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:58 pm

Garry, had you been around for tournaments in the days before PBD mix, there's no conceivable way you would ever bring it into a discussion about further gameplay changes.

The fact is before PBD mix we were all forced to play a game we didn't grow up with. Tournaments were usually played with team A choosing, so people who grew up with PBD were sometimes forced to play NOPBD and vice-versa. Team A choosing was OK because we also had to play x2 or multiples of because we didn't have the wonders of A=B either. Everyone had to play half their games handicapped because they couldn't play how they grew up whilst attacking. The harmony at tournaments once PBD choice was introduced was remarkable. Some argue that the PBDers have an advantage, but if I remember correctly, neither Spyros or Gianlucca used PBD, so 5 years of world championships were won by NOPBD players.

I don't recall any time that anyone complained about it being a change of gameplay because it wasn't. As a NOPBD player I am happy that I don't have to play the altered gameplay of PBD, as many PBD players are happy that they don't have to play the, for them, altered gameplay of NOPBD gameplay. The change in gameplay came in the days before the excellent PBD choice when we all had to play altered gameplay.

To say that gameplay is already altered so further changes are cool too is ridiculous in the extreme, it actually makes my heard hurt contemplating the nonsense of that point of view. Using that logic any change to the gameplay is justifiable and that clearly can't be what you're suggesting.
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Re: 12th KO2 World Cup Settings - Debate

Postby alkis21 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:30 am

Garry, for me the "the game we grew up with" argument is very important and not at all outdated. Hell, it's the most important argument of all. Unless you never played a single game against the Amiga in your life, PBD is nothing new to you. As Steve has said again and again in the past, it exists in every single Kick Off version as part of the computer AI. And as Mark said, you were never forced to control your own players with PBD as those who were in the KOA before the KO2CV days were. As far as I am concerned, KOA's Kick Off 2 was what I grew up playing (yes, even when I was playing 1.4, I'd played thousands of non-PBD games in Final Whistle) until the slidefix came along.
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