WORLD RANKING - Updated for April 2002

Talk about any Kick Off Tournament here.

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Steve
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Postby Steve » Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:30 am

I can guarantee the logic behind the ranking is sound, the better the opponent you win against the more you will progress, the worse the opponent you lose against the more you will fall. As i'm now ranked 11th in the world i see no reason to complain <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> i can imagine it would be a bit of a pisser suddenly finding you are ranked way below someone you've beaten but if you look at the big picture as yourself 'Did i do as well as i could have in Glous?' I don't think there is anyone who dropped places that can think they did. Even ask yourself 'Did i do better than i thought i would?' if you did then i reckon you've probably moved up those world rankings, if not then...
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Postby Wonka » Wed Mar 27, 2002 10:33 am

This topic is so runty.
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Postby Brfc » Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:01 am

Robert, I find your system magnificent, but then again, not complete. Mr. Beard posted a few decent questions in his last post, and Robert, as long as you'll be willing to make a few changes here, and there, your system will be THE one.

I understand that people might cry out about " I almost always beats him, why am I ranked lower than him??"

The answer is plain simple:

If Brazil wins the WC, but lost 1 game in the opening group to Norway, this doesn't mean that Norway are better than Brazil. Of course not.

Neither if one of you guys, let's say J.Beard tend to beat Swifty, he should therefore be guaranteed a place above Robert.

What does matter is not how you do in mathces against ONE guy, but how you do against many different guys - and styles. If Robert beats 5 guys that J.Beard only manage 2W, 2D, 1L, I would say that Robert should be ranked above J.Beard even thouh Mr. Beard might be better then Robert when they play each other.

Anyway, you've put many hours in this system Swifty, and this one can be great, and THE one. Just make sure that you're willing to make a few tweakes here and there if people find that necessary <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
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Postby filippodb » Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:48 am

Oh my god, this topic is very big! So I work with robert and I studied a lot his chart unless some people here that only have to says it's runty.
First of all the ranking sistem, like the Fifa it's not a fair sistem that explain correctly who is the best, the ranking means that the top 5 is really the top 5 player in the world then the n.5 could be better than n. 1 but the n. 20 it couldn't be better the number 5!
Do you know what I mean?
I assure that the work of robert is very accurate.
We can't say I beat this guys twice then I'm better than him!!
We know, with kick off if I can easily beat the beard brothers and the beard can easily beat robert and it's not true that I can beat robert! Because every matches, every players are different!
So, before to say that the ranking is only runty, read the spreadheet and explain WHY is runty!
I know that this is only the first ranking and something could be wrong and could be changed!
Even the FIFA ranking changes a lot his mathematical approuch to calculate the points.
So, if you divide the rankings in groups of 5/6 players you can see that from the 1st to 6th ranked players are the best in the world at the moment, so from the 7th to 12th are a very nice player but he will be difficult for them to win a world tournament! And finally a player ranked from 13th to 18th can hardly beat in a match the first group of top players! and so on...
Do you know what I mean? Yes alkis is the number 5 maybe if robert adds his results in the greek championship could be n.2 or n.3!
This don't change nothig, he'll remain THE WORLD CHAMPION! But the ranking can help us for the people that couldn't be in dartford and they won't have the money or time to travel in the next world championship in athens!
So don't be too critic to this ranking just because also after dartford a lot of people was critic about the WC ranking, I think no ranking is fair, maybe also if a guy win a tournament this don't means it's really better than n.2 or n.3. I think in dartford there was 3 great player and they each could won. I remeber Gianluca that don't agree to be n.3, also for me is the n.1 but he lost only one match and went 3rd!
Even me I beat easily jim, but I couldn't go to the second day of tournament instead of jim!
Finally, the robert world ranking is not too serious, the dartford world ranking in not too serious, the fifa world ranking is also not too serious!!
Don't be too critics, I explain, if you're in the top 10 this means that you are one of the best player worldwide and you have "some" possibility to win a world tournament!
You're n.20? No way, you've to make a lot of practice for to be a top 10 player!
this is the spirit!


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: filippodb on 2002-03-27 13:43 ]</font>
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Postby dEaDfRoG » Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:52 am

All seems a load of arse to me - nobody remembers second place, let alone the places down from there!

I don't need a ranking system to tell me that I need to improve on my finishing to do better.

If you're not in the top three, who cares where you are!! :

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dEaDfRoG on 2002-03-27 12:54 ]</font>
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Postby VKafiris » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:00 pm

It certainly doesn't work like this deadfrog.
Argentina is not no1 in the world ranking but I really do care a lot! <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Again, the KO2 WC cannot be just 5th in the world ranking! That's totally unfair!
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Postby filippodb » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:04 pm

Robert can you please add the athens results to the ranking, so we can climb up Alkis? he he
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Postby Ely » Wed Mar 27, 2002 1:35 pm

My head hurts <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif"> <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif">
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Postby SimonB » Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:36 pm

there's certainly a few open wounds floating around since Gloucester
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Postby Robert Swift » Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:44 pm

By not having the Athens results, Alkis's ranking suffers. Also we have no information with which to rank George or Takis. If someone could just find those results, I would be delighted to add them in.

In principle, the spreadsheet is saying that Alkis was the #1 player in Dartford, but as far as it knows he has not played a game since. We all agreed it would be wrong for someone to win a few games then sit back on the results and remain #1 forever. Bill and Rikki's wins are more 'current', and they were also achieved over a longer series of games, thereby giving more data or 'proof' of how good they are. The same applies to Nazim, also he achieves a high number of points for his wins, simply because he scores more goals per game. Gianluca is ranked above Alkis due to winning the Italian tournament. Despite the fact the matches were only worth 6/32 or 19% points, the fact he didn't lose a game means he took about 50 points from this tournament.

I will remind people that points are not created by playing extra games. It does not favour those who travel around. Indeed I personally lost a load of points to Klaus and Glenn by travelling to Sweden. One advantage for runty players is that if they wait long enough, their ranking will go back to 1000, just as the top players will find it shrinking back to 1000. As an example Bill is currently on 1600 points but will lose 6 next month. If he wants to stay on 1600 it will require regular beating of other players. But if he is only beating Danny (ranked 400pts) then his gains are multiplied by 400/1600 or 25%, so he is wasting his time. He would only gain 5pts a game for beating Danny. However, if Danny BEATS bill, Danny will STEAL 1600/400 or 400% points, so he could gain 100pts just for such a win. In fact Danny can recover his points very very quickly, just by a few victories over average (1000) players as his gains are x2.5. Do people get the idea?

James - in answer to your question YES, the system works fine if you want to include a series of games between two players. No points are created for the games, just transferred between the players. Basically, any results you want included in the ranking, just agree beforehand and then post them on here. But you must agree beforehand. This could set up some nice duels I think. However, you don't stand to make massive gains if the series is very close - remember that any points you might gain from Martin would be x2/32 or 6% because there are only two of you playing. But as an example, if you played a 10 game series with Martin and won all 10, you might gain around 25pts per match x10x6%= 15pts. Martin would transfer these points to you. However if the series was only 7 wins for you and 3 for him, well you might only gain 4 points.

At the moment I have only included events with 5 or more people. However, if 2 players want to meet up and agree in advance that it is a 'ranking challenge' - fine, post the results on here. But remember, like the value of investments, your points can go down as well as up <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
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Postby Vin » Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:57 pm

Robert, i would just like to point out something about your system. I am not just saying this because of my good defensive record but because i believe it would make the system fairer.

Basically what is a better result, a 4-1 win or a 7-6 win? Obviously the 4-1. Under your system however someone would recieve far more points for a 7-6 win, because you only take account of goals scored and not goals conceded. You are currently awarding 3 or 4 points for every goal scored. I think 3 or 4 points should be deducted for every goal conceded as well. So in effect you should be awarded points on the basis of your goal difference in each match.

Going back to my example a 7-6 win as Team A would get 21 points under your system and 3 under mine. The 4-1 win would recieve 12 points under your system and 9 points under mine. I am only including the goals part of yor system here, everything else is fine such as points for wins, losses, draws, strength of tournament etc.
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Postby Vin » Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:03 pm

Just to add to those examples i will include the 18 points for a Team A win.

4-1 win (current) = 18+12 = 30
7-6 win (current) = 18+21 = 39

4-1 win (suggested) = 18+9 = 27
7-6 win (suggested) = 18+3 = 21

To stress this point i will use a tournament example from my own results. Basically how can my 5-4 win over Andy Ellis be worth the same as my 5-2 win over Naz?
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vin on 2002-03-27 16:05 ]</font>
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Postby NChoudhury » Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:43 pm

Robert - I certainly can appreciate how much effort you have put into the table and I certainly like my position above Mr Dig <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
However - my feeling are that it just cannot work due to the fact that nothing has been set up for the way ranking points interrelate overall. Surely until we have some annual definite fixtures across Europe and all the infrastructure is in place, the sensisble thing is that you only get world ranking points for the world championships and national ranking points for national championships. That stops all confusion and lets us have something to build on for next year/season. If other competitions are going to have ranking points it has to be decided BEFORE them. Also things could get ridiculous if people are allowed to set up their own competitions to get ranking points willy-nilly. Just a few thoughts.

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