WORLD RANKING - Updated for April 2002

Talk about any Kick Off Tournament here.

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JamesHBeard
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Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:35 pm

Mark Durban I love your challenge..

The BEARDS will conquer you in our next meeting. No matter how many Amigas you get we will assimilate you. resistance is futile.

The masses of tips and advice from Rikki will surely enable the BEARDS to reach the ELITE category of KO2 players...

Steve Camber look out you are going to fall behind in out next regular confrontation. When can the Beards come up to Sheffield for a Sheffield Championship Steve mate ?
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Postby SimonB » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:38 pm

If you want some serious practice you boys need to take a day trip to london for one of our local competitions - only 5 out of the top 6 from gloucester playing at any one time!
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Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:45 pm

That M25 is a real killer Simon mate..

Anywhere inside the M25 circle of death is a killer to get to.
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Postby SimonB » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:49 pm

It was built as a giat defensive moat to keep out the riff-raff, but if you come in on the M4 and then take the North Circular you can avoid it (and most but not all of the traffic)
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Postby Robert Swift » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:56 pm

Ho Ho Ho!

Got you all ranting, haven't I?

Particularly those who think they should be higher up the list!

OK let me explain what I did and why I did it.

Firstly, I did NOT invent the idea of ranking. We already have one, that was done by Alkis and Vasilis after Dartford.

Secondly, many good players have come onto the scene SINCE Dartford, and as we have some data on their results, I have tried to find a mechanism to incorporate them on a like-for-like comparison.

Thirdly, debates about who is better than who, started before the ranking system and will continue after it. The whole FUCKING idea (and that's swearing) is to make an impartial mathematical mechanism that calculates points based ONLY on results and not emotions.

We are not dealing with an issue of truth and falsehood here, just a matter of preference. Perhaps we should allocate points in a different way, and I'm happy to discuss this, but I will not listen to people who say the ranking is 'wrong'. I explained the rules, and the spreadsheet has applied them to the last digit. The rankings are therefore 'correct'. The rules may be wrong, but the rankings are different.

In summary, I have tried to find a way to UPDATE the Dartford world ranking and keep it current. It should give new players something to play for, to feel their contribution is recognised, and not that the whole thing is a closed shop based around the original 32 guys at the first event.

If you guys really believe that the Dartford event counts for nothing, I wonder what the hell most of you were doing there, jumping out of your chairs when you scored.

Some of you may recall that I published my unofficial (personal opinion) ranking before Gloucester. I did this on the basis of having played more KOA members than anybody else. But some people got offended, so I decided to take the subjective opinion out of it and make a mathematical system. I was not the only one with this idea. Except, as usual, I'm the only one prepared to have a go at doing the work.

When I made my UPO ranking, I made the same mistake as the rest of you. I tended to focus on key results that I could remember, thinking "well, he beat him, so he must be better than him, and he had a draw with someone really good BLAH BLAH BLAH". The problem with doing it this way is that I didn't watch every game, and human memory only tends to focus on 10% of the actual results. The spreadsheet I prepared has the results of 568 tournament matches. I doubt any of you whinging b'stards remembers the result of Franco vs Nazim, Pim Vink vs Screech, Glenn vs Jacob, Fabio vs Giacomo, etc etc - and neither do I - but I don't have to as I know that my spready takes every single last goal into account. Come back and call that 'shit' when you've made something better.
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Postby Robert Swift » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:01 am

I'd actually like to thank Durban, Simon B and Steve S for their intelligent feedback and encouragement on this project.
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Postby JamesHBeard » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:05 am

Robert, I hope you slammed the table a few times when you made that last posting <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">

As I discussed with Durban I am not knocking you for your efforts just stating that I dont agree with your rankings.

I think that with your ranking system players must play games regularly to be able to be ranked fairly which is kind of biased towards people who have the money and resource to travel around the country/world to play KO2.

Your ranking obviouslly has something going for it but again I would emphasise the point that you are causing more controversy than anything else.

I admit that I am not happy with my ranking position in your system and will categorically ingnore your ranking system. Ask Steve Camber or Martin Beard who is best out of the three of us and I will guarantee you that they will all say that we are equal to each other in ability.

Now I am going to slam the table a couple of times <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif"> and await your gentle response.
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Postby Robert Swift » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:18 am

TO JAMES BEARD

James, since we are now good chums as well as bitter rivals, I am going to take the opportunity to explain exactly why I am ranked above you by the calculation.

The calculation is based on results, and results only. If you would like to suggest something else to base it on, please go ahead.

Rankings before Gloucester:
J.Beard 993
R.Swift 1032

Change at Gloucester:
J.Beard +19
R.Swift +215

You are making the typical human error and focusing ONLY on the narrow 3-2 win by J.Beard over R.Swift. Now, please compare and contrast the following sets of results:

S.Butt 4-1 J.Beard
D.Gray 5-2 J.Beard
M.Beard 4-3 J.Beard
M.Williams 2-1 J.Beard
J.Beard 1-4 S.Camber
J.Beard 1-3 A.Ellis
J.Beard 0-1 M.Angus

R.Swift 3-1 S.Butt
R.Swift 8-1 D.Gray
R.Swift 3-2 M.Beard
R.Swift 3-0 M.Williams
S.Camber 1-3 R.Swift
A.Eliis 1-2 R.Swift
M.Angus 3-5 R.Swift

Like I say, it's based on results.

I can copy and paste the ranking points gained and lost for each and every game you played in the tourney if you like. Or we can stop this here.

James, you are an excellent player and a threat to anyone. The fact is that you underperfored in Gloucester. Please do not take out your disappointment in throwaway comments about the calculation spreadsheet. The spreadsheet has done what was asked and looked at every result in an impartial way.

If you are going to criticise it because you don't like the results, remember who played the actual games! Are you talking to me? Cause I don't see anyone else here....

I recommend to those who don't like the results: stop sounding like Anthony Kyne and start planning your revenge. If you organise and win a tourney, post the results and they will go straight in here, you have my word!
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Postby Beckite » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:38 am

On close inspection of your rating system Robert it does hold some water in the fact that it gives percentage results of matches played between certain KOA members.I say certain because JB does raise a fair point that the ratings only include KOA members who have in fact taken part in tourneys.Of course quite correctly this is not a concern of yours Robert and you can only make a fair comment from what you have on paper,make no mistake i have to say your stat work is very impressive and worthy of much praise.I dread to think what is going to happen if many more players in the KOA manage to attend tourneys,sleep will become a scarce and much loved commodity for you. <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
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Postby Robert Swift » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:49 am

No worries Beckite. Now I've set the thing up, I can paste in results and add people easily, including yourself if you ever make it to a tourney <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

James, I am not bothered if you and other people who don't like their results want to ignore their rankings. I will update the thing each time more results are posted on here for those who do want to look at it.

I am happy to discuss the mechanics with anyone, but not really the points table as I am not responsible for whether you win your tournament games or not.

By the way, I reject the idea that I am CAUSING controversy. Actually, the controversy existed before I did the work. The ranking spreadsheet is a focal point for the controversy, but NOT a cause of it.
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Postby durban » Wed Mar 27, 2002 1:21 am

I look at it this way, now I aint taking any sides because there are no sides to be taken.

The fifa rankings show the world teams in an order decided by maths and not feelings.

But after the African nations the rankings get all messed up as some African teams win a lot of matches and thus move up the table whilst other European teams have played no competetive matches.

Now I look and think, huh Senegal higher than Belgium, no way!

But then I see it also as a way of judging the teams on a basis that they can be judged, I know Senegal aren't as good as the current Belgium team, but I can see that on percentages and recent results they are winning and thus moving up.

I don't look at the top 3 teams and see them as the best, I see them as the teams who are currently doing well, and thus I use it as a guage, not as a rule, just an idea to let me see which way teams are moving against their postitions, not their competitors.

I don't agree with ranking, I think you can never get ranking 100% right, you mate get the top and bottom players right, but in between you have a million ways of judging.

Therefore I like Robs table as it gives me something to look at to guage my own standings and lets me see if I can improve on those stats.

In the meantime I can judge myself who I feel is better and worse than me and I don't need the table for that.

Lets just all use common sense, Alkis isn't 5th in the world, we all agree, but in the table he is becuase there is not enough data to change that, we don't have to agree with the data, and we don't even have to use it, but if it helps some of us even a little bit to recognise where we are lacking or improving then I say its a good thing.

Thats me done....

I quite happily accept if people think that the above is complete bollocks, I am sure in some peoples eyes it is, but these are my eyes and thats how I see it.

Use the table for your own good, don't use it as a guide to who is better than who, just use it to see who is currently playing better and more.

M
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Postby Binary » Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:18 am

On 2002-03-26 19:45, Robert Swift wrote:

2) I TRIED to get the scored from the Athens Gathering from Alkis but these were not available or posted anywhere on this forum.


At least his and Vasilis's are available at:

http://www.ko-gathering.com/phpBB/viewt ... 6&forum=12
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Postby JamesHBeard » Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:20 am

TO ROBERT.

Again Robert you have proved that you are correct and so I apologise. Yes again I apologise to you. Sorry for beating you at Gloucester as well <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">

All I want to ask is...

My brother and I play each other every night and should we be posting these results to gain points and climb the ranking table ?
Also I try to get a tournament versus Steve Camber and The Beards on a monthly basis.
Are all these results valid as well ?

Robert.. 1 very small and pathetic complaint but I am a Beard ...

My brother and I have competed in two tournaments. I have finished higher in both yet I am considerably lower ranked than him.. Please help me get over this embarassment by explaining how this can happen.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JamesHBeard on 2002-03-27 10:26 ]</font>

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