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Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:23 am
by Robert Swift
On 2002-04-03 09:56, dEaDfRoG wrote:
Another interesting fact - when France won the World Cup, they still ranked second to Brazil. It wasn't until they won the European Championships that they became ranked first.

An extremely good point.

France were hosts, and didn't play any qualifying games. Brazil played the full qualifying campaign, impressively winning a whole load of games against Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Paraguay etc.

So Brazil had more ranking points because they played more games. This is precisely the issue we have in the KOA.

France's viewpoint, if Brazil is ranked number 1:
"Sacre bleu! How can we possibly be ranked below Brazil? We just thrashed them 3-0 in the World Cup final! We are the greatest team ever! Your ranking is a load of shit! This is all bollocks! Start again form scratch and rewrite it so we are top! If you don't, then take us out of your stupid little ranking as we don't want to be judged by you. Merde!"

Brazil's viewpoint, if France is ranked number 1:
"What! We lose one damn game in 3 years and suddenly we're number 2. This is a fix! You're out to get us! Ronaldo wasn't even fit. The French were playing at home. Everything worked out nice for them, didn't it? Everyone knows we're the best in the world really. How did France get to the world cup anyway? Oh yes, we forgot, they were hosting it. I'd like to see them go and win in Argentina. Ever since we started playing football, we've had people telling us we weren't the best. This is all bollocks! Start again form scratch and rewrite it so we are top!"


Someone has to be number one and someone has to be number two. If a multi-million dollar organisation like FIFA can't find a solution to this problem, how the f**k am I supposed to?

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:45 am
by JamesHBeard
BRAVO Robert !!!

A point well made !!!

There are complainers and contributors in this forum so I suggest you listen to the contributors and ignore the complainers as they will never be content unless they are where they think they should be.

Have you looked at my spreadsheet I sent you that took me an hour or so to build ?

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 11:06 am
by dEaDfRoG
Great post Robert, I liked that one. I didn't feel you used enough Portugese in the Brazilian post, and to be honest I wasn't too impressed with the lack of French either.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 11:29 am
by Robert Swift
Yes, see my email.

I am getting sick of redoing the calculations. The problems all stem from the imperfect format of Dartford, i.e. not a league, random draw, unequal games.

Everyone is so attached to their 'official' Dartford ranking that Alkis gave them. They won't accept any system that calculates them even one place lower. They just shout you down. "RA RA RA RA RA!!"

You can recalculate it over and over again, trying to remove 'unfairness' but you actually make no progress from the initial calculation, which was just as fair, but just different, and favoured different people at random.

The core problem is that Dartford was a very poor format for ranking. We all played different numbers of games, against different opponents. There is no generally satisfying way to allocate points based on this system. Whatever rules you apply someone will hate it. One person's gain is another's loss. And the more you recalculate it, the more it loses credibility. People's eyes start to glaze over. Which ranking were they supposed to believe? How many more times are you going to recalculate it? Are you redoing it just because someone 'senior' complained? This is supposed to be impartial!

I am going to give people a really simple choice.

1) We calculate the points gained at Dartford on a simple mathematical basis and stand by the results, even if these are different to the rankings handed out by Alkis afterwards.

2) We get the Alkis 'official' ranking from Dartford, and allocate the points in steps, in order from Alkis (1500), right down to Niels (500). We then run the ranking formula on all results AFTER Dartford (which were all leagues anyway), and view the calculation as an UPDATE of Dartford.

I think you all know that my personal preference is 1) - that way you get consistency. However, I will accept 2) if it helps people to accept the update system.

There is only one way to solve this - through a vote. I am going to post a copy of this in the other "Step by step" thread and then proceed from there, asking people to vote:

SPREADSHEET from start
base on ORIGINAL list

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 11:33 am
by filippodb
But KOA have only one world champion, and had only one world championship, very, very far from the situation of the FIFA and its last two world champions!

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:27 pm
by MJB

I vote for the system that gives me the best rating. Please perform a series of calculations and use the one most favorable for me.

There you go.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:43 pm
by VKafiris
<IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 1:09 pm
by MJB
I do not mean to be obtuse I just don't have the inclination to get into all this.

Robert keep the spread sheets flowing and keep it real.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 1:21 pm
by JamesHBeard
But Martin you have a degree in mathematics including a statistical module so surely you should make some constructive points to calm the nerves of the complainers...

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 1:38 pm
by Robert Swift
Guys, believe me I am getting tired of this. This is like one of those projects that runs months over time and over budget.

We can debate this forever, but some people will never be happy with their ranking. No system we have will please all, because only 1 person can be No.1 and someone HAS TO BE No.50.

The problem is that any equation use will favour someone and penalise someone else. Any rule change you make cannot restore equality but merely promotes different people above others. It's rather like the political system - Utopia is unachieveable. Political parties will argue, but meantime the government gets on with making the decisions, however unpopular.

I now feel that we are in the endgame, and have nearly exhausted all possible revisions. If anyone wants to come back and understand why the system works like it does, they now have literally pages of discussion, questions, criticism and explanations.

I hope this discussion will close in the next 24hrs, and we can then adopt a system by majority vote. Then we can get on with playing the game, and if people want to pay attention to their standing, they know what is required to improve it.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 2:11 pm
by dEaDfRoG
I personally think the ranking system you proposed was sound enough. It's a good thing to be able to move up the table by getting better results, gives you something to aim for! I like it, Rob, and I support it!

If people want to take it so seriously as to bitch about it, then so be it - I play Kick Off 2 to have fun and enjoy myself (and to meet new peeps of late).

People are dying of starvation, world war 3 is brewing in the middle east - I'll be a monkeys bell-end if I'm going to sweat about my KO2 ranking!!

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 3:08 pm
by durban
Hah hah Robert, I have a plan so cunning you will have to call it the cunningest plan of all.

We could have the ranking spreadsheet, but down the side instead of putting the numbers from 1 to 50, just put the numbers as all 1.

That way everone will be number one thus no complaints (even though the spreadsheet will actually be in ranking order!)

If we are lucky no-body will notice and we will get away with it.

(note to self : Don't post this on forum, send as private message!)

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 3:29 pm
by MJB
Well put. Bro I might of been able to put a few suggestions Robert's way but if I did that I'd end up getting really into it and life's too short. I'd rather spend time PLAYING KO2 than creating a complex ranking system hehe.

If I was you Robert I'd probably feel pissed at the mo, but I applaud your attempt and the friendly banter between you and the Official World Champion. That was good to see.

I just love the banter on here some times. Ahhhh the memories, I did laugh at Swifty's comment "probably the worst post since rikki picked up a keyboard" <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Then there was the "IMBECILE" comment - touchy...
"Decent or not at all" was a good one from bro of late, and the signature change of someone soon to be crushed from the combinded mass of the Beard's was highly amusing.
Then we have Wonka's gf comments re. Alkis. Add to that the Team A / Team B argument (I'd love to quote RS again on that but I won't) and the banter on here has provided me with much amusement in the forum's relatively short lifespan.

Anyway bring it to a vote and see what the KOA has to say about it.