WC 2010 - Random thoughts

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Rodolfo
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WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:53 am

Several times, in the WC competition, my oponents scored a kick off lob or some other disagreeable trick, and then said: "I am sorry". Well, if you are really sorry about that, do not do it. You are perfectly entitled to do whatever you want, but I find it silly if you do it, and then apologize.


We are always running out of time on sunday. The only solution without altering the current competition format is begging the players to have some self discipline, and do not spend more time going for another beer and another cigarette, than playing. I have finished all my games before 16.00 both days, and it was not so difficult. And this year, just like all the last four years, I had to wait about three hours to play my last game, the Silver Cup final.
Since the lack of discipline will prevail, I propose reducing the 2 leg knock outs. For example, only those aiming for the WC will continue playing 2 legs, all those disqualified will play only 1 leg until they have reached their final position.


Anoter subject, related with the already mentioned lack of players discipline: how many times must the organizers, with the microphone, shout "please stop all your games!"? Perhaps we can have a general switch, controlled by the organizers, that can switch off all computers at the same time, so all these anarchist will have no other than paying attention.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby alkis21 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:34 pm

I had hoped for a week of peace before starting discussing this... :? Oh well.

I have given up on hoping for more discipline from the players. The number of people who take three hour lunch breaks or take an hour of recess after every match is just too big and I don't think there is anything we can do about it. All the suggestions I've heard fall under the "easier said than done' category.

Here's a random thought from me: I resign from the position of handling the software. This decision is final. It is similar to the Seedings situation: I've always been happy to shovel the KOA's shit as it's a job that needs to be done and very few people seem to want to do it, but when I feel unappreciated I draw the line. I've heard TEN TIMES more complaints than 'thank you's in Duesseldorf so I fail to see why I should put myself up to this tedious, time consuming, fun killing task again. Before you suggest 1-leg matches lightly, do you know how many people came to me and complained about 1-leg matches and the fact that the software gave them more Team B games than Team A?

Did those people bother to discuss the format in the forum when it was time? No.
Did I design the software? No.
Was I the organizer? No.
Did that stop anyone from coming to me for complaints? Hell no.

There was a certain gentleman who had complained last year about the 9-16 and 5-8 rounds taking up too much of our time. I found his complaints justified so I suggested to the organizers that we make them one leg this year. The same gentleman complained this year and asked why these rounds were one leg. I can't win.

I was even asked repeatedly ridiculous questions like "what the fuck are we waiting for" or "why doesn't Player X play his games?". And more often than not it was not a polite inquiry but a demand with an angry, smug, "what the fuck am I paying you for" voice and look. Yes, that was my reward. So for next year let me make it clear, I will post instructions on the installation and usage of the software months ago but I won't lift a finger during the actual world cup.

That said, I agree that time is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed. I have two suggestions, please hear me out:

1) Don't have a lunch break on Sunday. Before you protest, think about it: people can still leave the tournament room to grab a bite. But instead of emptying the room all together, they will do it in small groups and probably not before they've played an adequate number of matches, so the games will continue even at a slower pace. Both in Voitsber and in Duesseldorf the lunch break lasted 2.5 hours - really, how worse can it be?

2) This is a rather radical but in my opinion very logical suggestion: Play some Round 2 matches on Saturday. We always finish quite early on Saturday and end up playing friendlies for three hours before leaving the room, why not use that time to continue the tournament and free up some time from Sunday's busy schedule? At least the Silver and Bronze Cup groups may play some of their games during the first day of the world cup.

What do you think?
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:02 pm

I'm shocked!!! I thougth friday was the night to get hammered, and sunday was the day to play rather decent due to lesser alcohol being drunk saturday.

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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:07 pm

I fully agree with point 1. The forced interruption in play seems amatorial to me. If I'm hungry I can easily head outside and quickly grab something, or even be prepared and have something already with me.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Peter » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:35 pm

Freshmaker wrote:I'm shocked!!! I thougth friday was the night to get hammered, and sunday was the day to play rather decent due to lesser alcohol being drunk saturday.

What is the world coming to?



Well i got hammered on Friday ... ;-)
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Sascha » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:26 pm

I was a bit sad about the time constraints on day 2 as well, as it made me miss the big-screen games. I thought that for Day 1 the laissez-faire approach went very well. Actually I was a bit surprised, because at all world cups I attended there was a strict amount of Amigas per group. But after seeing it I thought the "play-where-you-want" was very good as there rarely ever was an Amiga unused. There were even queues in front of some systems.
For Day 2 it clearly did not work. It was not only the lunch-break (although most people did not know whether the official games are starting again after lunch break and therefore played friendlies for at least an hour). People were taking their time to prepare for the "crucial matches", people rather like watching other people play than playing their own games. I had the feeling as if the quarter finals were played in sequence on one Amiga instead of using all available resources. To get this to work for day 2, an organiser would have had to kick people in their arses constantly.
Maybe the Rickmansworth solution (I obviously dont know about how Day 2 was handled in Greece/Austria) was best? We started all games simultaneously (at least 4 of the 8 quarter finals) and you could see on the big screen which games were to come next. Everybody can see other peoples games (unless they do not play at the same time) and you have a strict time table when to play which game.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Torchiador » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:35 pm

If I remember correctly, the only one world cup with a perfect scheduling of the events, has been Cologne. We could ask Sascha to know what it he did to keep things going smooth.
Besides this one, I take the opportunity to say that in my opinion, it would be helpful to collect all the information about the lasts world cups regarding what worked, what didn't work, trying to understand what we can improve for future world cups.
For example, I think that the best thing is to have the meals in the same place of the tournament room, like Cologne, Rickmanstowth and Voitsberg. In order to save time, I remember that in a couple of International tournaments ( for sure it was London-Apsely 2006) we asked for pizzas and sandwiches and we had our meals in the tournament room. I think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to adopt this one for world cups too, if we can't have a Votsberg's solution (very good meal at very low price). Then we can speak about it, but as said buy Alkis, it is important to do it in advance, so it is important to be active on the forum.
Besides this one, I think that a sort of KOA Constitution would be needed. there are many things we have to think about, and I know the most of us have very little time to discuss on it. anyway I think that few things are necessary, to make and to have the things clear.
One of these are for sure the the "road to world cup" issue. we have to come back on this one for sure. Alkis and some else suggest to leave the FIFA world CUP format (with precise routes and cross among groups of players) changing to the Champions league format, with a new Draws after the groups phase is over. In my opinion this second solution would be better since the KOA is more similar to the champions league format rather the fifa world cup. I mean that in champions league, some teams belong to the same country, the same is in the KOA.
Well, I think there are many irons in the fire and it could be a good start debates one of these days!
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby alkis21 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:40 pm

Guys, don't forget that Cologne and Rickmansworth had no second group stage for any of the cups. If we remove that it will be easy to stay on schedule, but I really like it so I'd hate to see it go.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Steve Camber » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:01 pm

A second draw on day 2 would be awesome. The more draws the better basically :)

With minimal downtime on day 2 there's no reason why we cant get all matches completed in the 3 cups, especially if we switch to single legs for the 8-16 positions.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Torchiador » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:14 pm

alkis21 wrote:Guys, don't forget that Cologne and Rickmansworth had no second group stage for any of the cups. If we remove that it will be easy to stay on schedule, but I really like it so I'd hate to see it go.

You are right, I forgot it :)
and you right as well, I really like it too.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby alkis21 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:52 pm

Anyway, this brainstorming is good. We don't need to decide anything right now, we don't even know who the next organizer will be but it's nice to have some ideas out in the open now that the experience of the world cup is still fresh.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Sascha » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:06 pm

I think you have to follow some strict policies on day 2 to get this complex schedule finished on time:

No group photos on day 2.
Eat in tournament facilities or order pizza for lunch break.
Separate amigas for gold/silver/bronze.
More moderation from organizer "now we start the quarter finals, next up matches for place 9-16 etc".
Use microphone to kick peoples arses "alkis p, you lazy bastard. You only have 3 games, while the rest has 6". Social monitoring works :lol:
If you have a time schedule, use it. Or else no one will respect it anyway.
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Re: WC 2010 - Random thoughts

Postby Robert » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm

Alkis, don't go bitching about me then deleting my posts OK? Think before you rant like that.

From my point of view

- I do not remember complaining about 2 leg knockouts in Voitsberg and deny making this request for one leg
- Alkis if you are going to make changes like that in my name at least tell me about it and don't use the "but you said" line because you sound like a woman
- ALL knockout games should be Two Leg
- It was not the 5-8 or 9-16 games that cause a delay, it was the early pressure on machines caused by the Bronze and Silver cups. For long periods it was not possible to find the person, or it was possible to find the person but not a free machine.
- We had a lot of interruptions like the team photo, and presentation to Steve, which lost us many gaming hours because it seemed like I was always getting up (at others' request) being the bastard one telling people to stop playing and not start new games. So now we look stupid complaining that things lasted too long. Am just saying that these interruptions are costly and should be scheduled; there should never be a call to stop playing or not start games. We need and want people to show initiative and get games finished.
- By the way it's unacceptable for people to sit back and have 4-5 games left to play when everyone else has finished, whoever that person is.

I finished all my Sunday games quickly and spent a lot of time standing around waiting for others, that could have been spent playing a second leg with players like Frederic, Jacob and George. These games would have been played immediately after the first leg anyway. The problem overall was the shortage of Amigas to fixtures (caused by Silver/ Bronze cups) and the difficulty of finding some people. But let's get real - we had more people than last year so the Silver / Bronze cups were going to be bigger and longer. I am surprised that we were surprised about this.

I think this discussion is largely pointless as we don't know where we are playing next year, how many Amigas we will have, how many players, and whether an on-site lunch is possible. So let's not try to fix it now. Let's just remember that we had this problem again, and set ourselves the task to plan better and prevent it next time.

About Rodolfo's comment, yes that's very logical of you. But you are also making a point against sportsmanship and politeness.

If you leave your opponent an opportunity to dive for a penalty or score a cheap goal, then you are partly to blame. Your opponent, if they are a good player, should be ruthless enough to exploit this mistake of yours, but it's only natural that they feel bad for you and empathize with your frustration. So this comes out as 'sorry'. Sorry in this case means, I feel sorry for you, not I apologize. If someone's brother dies in a car crash, I say 'oh dear, I am sorry'. This means I have sympathy for them.

Here, read sorry = sympathy, not apology. The misunderstanding is yours.

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