To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

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Robert Swift
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To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Robert Swift » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:18 pm

This is prompted by the difficulty in securing 15 people for the UK Championships, and the fact there are currently THREE players from the UK going to the World Cup (from over 50 in the database).

I always find this concept of 'retirement' puzzling.

I mean, people lose interest in computer games, for sure. I played Guild Wars for 25 hours a week, for 2 years, but then completely lost the ability or interest to continue. I'd completed it many times over. I had all the titles. Same with Counterstrike... played it to death but then it just got repetitive... everyone playing one map. The game just didn't evolve, it was very impersonal, no reason existed to go on.

But how exactly does it work with something like Kick Off 2? Literally, as you move from your 18th-19th year of playing the game, suddenly you wake up one day and reach that moment where you think "I don't like this game any more." Is that how it works?

It bugs me that there are people out there who have the confidence the KOA will always be there, ready for them to go back to, if and when they have a whim to do so. These are the people that think it's OK for them to decide, on the morning of the event, whether they will attend major tournaments; and that other people will be happy to drive hundreds of miles and pay facilities hire on a vague promise that they might turn up.

The point I am making is that, by withdrawing your support - 'retiring' and not attending events - you WILL kill the organization over time, and then it WON'T be around in future years - maybe 1,2,5 or 10 years time - if you one day decide you fancy a game of Kick Off 2 against other people.

The last few years have seen a sequence of UK championships - Nottingham, Manchester, Stoke, Reading, Wolverhampton - where I have fought hard to maintain a decent level of attendace (15+) to make it worthy of the name 'Championship'. It's been harder each year to maintain this attendance. I just did a quick 'where are they now' of Stoke (4 years ago) and am looking at how many of the 16 players will attend this year.... optimistically, we'll have Lee M, Steve C, Robert S, Jon G, Mark W.... so that's 5 from 16, and 2 are unconfirmed, just a fortnight before the event. This is ..... shit. There is no other word for it.

We've done just about everything we can; moved the event around, kept it accessible, made it a one-day roundtrip.... all so that people don't have to abandon families etc. But what's noticeable is that many people aren't even polite enough to respond to or acknowledge invitations. It's not as if we are asking people for any great sacrifice of money or time, but you'd think we were trying to recruit for the armed forces or Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe asking them to donate to charity or change electricity supplier. Seriously what is the problem? Do you not like Kick Off 2 any more? Do you think it's acceptable to just disappear from the radar and then come back any time you like, expecting things to still be going as before?

THIS REQUIRES YOUR CONTRIBUTION, OR IT WILL DIE OUT. Strangest of all are the people that continue to post on this forum but do not play Kick Off 2 any more. I can understand why you might hang around for the social aspect, so for that reason we could expect you to come to the events too?

This is my last plea to some of you guys ...... Lazyness + Lack of Commitment = Dead KOA = another KO2 dark age with no-one to play against except your Amiga. It's not like I am a vicar asking you to come to church every Sunday, or you will go to hell. All that's being requested is a minimum of one Saturday per year.

It's really great to see dormant players like Andy E and Andy H returning after a break of several years, and that just strengthens my belief that KO2 is like riding a bike or speaking a language, it is with you always, not like some crappy PC game that you uninstall or forget. FFS it was 10+ years since the game's launch when we held our first KOA tournament..... When will people get it? There IS no retirement from Kick Off 2. You retire from Kick Off 2 when you retire from life.

The problem is though that, while Kick Off 2 is permanent, Kick Off 2 tournaments are temporary. They are fragile. Kick Off 2 tournaments require people to stay in touch, to make a commitment to each other.... to plan, to make a small sacrifice of a few hours for greater good.

We're now reaching the critical point where, if people like Waynie, Beards, Ely, Stainy, BBob, Haydn, Pee, Wonka, Ben G, Simon all continue with this retirement shit then it will be the KOA that is finished, not just them. People..... think of the time, effort and years it took to build all of this up. Don't let it turn to dust because you THINK you can't spare 6 hours on 10th October 2009.

I am leaving the country for work at the end of this year - I have serious doubts about whether the UKC can be viable next year - which is something those of us with sufficient gumption to turn up need to discuss in Wolverhampton on the day. These things take time and effort to organize, and if they are not supported, organizers will eventually be unwilling to waste their time and take the financial risk.

BE UNDER NO ILLUSIONS, THIS MAY BE YOUR LAST OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY IN A UKC and, if we get under 15 people, it probably will be.

ALL BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T TURN UP.

Before you flame, just think about it a few minutes.

Thanks.
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby gdh82 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:38 pm

Excellent post, Robert.

So much of this rings true to me right now. When I'm chasing KOA'ers I always respect a straight answer. Do some not bother replying because they feel bad about saying no ? Not knowing someone's position is worse than a 'no' from an organiser's point of view. :?o:

Must admit I've also wondered if this could be last UKC ever. :( These events are far more fragile than we think. Ultimately we all individually make it happen, or not as the case may be...
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Bounty Bob » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:40 pm

Robert Swift wrote:We're now reaching the critical point where, if people like Waynie, Beards, Ely, Stainy, BBob, Haydn, Pee, Harper, Ben G, Simon all continue with this retirement shit then it will be the KOA that is finished, not just them.
I haven't retired, thought my position was clear. Weekends=spend with my son. No argument is going to change this priority. KO2 without slide=not interested. Have it on a Wednesday afternoon with slide and I'll be there. Although I suspect I may be alone at that tournament!
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Robert Swift » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:52 pm

Careful what you wish for BBob! I may well host a Wednesday tournament with slides, in Rickmansworth, between the UKC and World Cup. Assuming that the WC has slides, some practice with would be handy.
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Rayge » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:59 pm

An excellent opportunity to remind people how the sensible soccer community handled this problem very well, with a dynamic method, constant tournaments and an increasing amount of people at every tournament. I have the same feeling since the day when people used to come to play online kick off with us, actually enjoyed it, promised to come back, and never did it.

As I stated more than one year ago in this topic viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14748#p236475 , the future of kick off doesn't look good. So yeah, even from the chatroom where I've been waiting for newcomers daily, I make the same conclusions. At this moment, the koa doesn't give me any hope at all for the long term survival of this game. But you guys don't plan to change anything, right ?
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Steve1977 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:03 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
Robert Swift wrote:We're now reaching the critical point where, if people like Waynie, Beards, Ely, Stainy, BBob, Haydn, Pee, Harper, Ben G, Simon all continue with this retirement shit then it will be the KOA that is finished, not just them.
I haven't retired, thought my position was clear. Weekends=spend with my son. No argument is going to change this priority. KO2 without slide=not interested. Have it on a Wednesday afternoon with slide and I'll be there. Although I suspect I may be alone at that tournament!


You wouldn't be alone BountyBob as myself, Gaz and everyone else have offered to organise tournaments (and attend yours) with AutoSlides intact, if the show of understanding, goodwill and compromise was reciprocated. Infact, I'm not sure if you'r close to moving to the Midlands but I'd take this a step further and host one tournament with auto's, one without etc. on and off so to speak.

The point is mute with regards to the UK Champs because you can't attend anyway due to it being on a weekend - and this is perfectly understandable. But its a shame that you point blankly rule yourself out of other tournaments when people are willing to accomodate you - as long as it's reciprocated.
I also understand your point about not wanting to feel like any given tournament is being altered to accomdate one person but no-one would think that at all.

**************************************************************************************

Excellent post Rob. Obviously no-one can force people to attend tournaments and whatnot but a big UK Champs should have people wanting to devote at least 1 DAY out of 365 to play Kick Off 2. No-one can force anyone that's for sure and no-one would want to but...players from days gone by, having obviously shown an interest, a love and passion in playing Kick Off 2 and it's suprising and sad that they have lost the passion that much, that 1 day out of 365 they'r unwilling to play.

I wish others would organise tournaments as well apart from the people in the Midlands. I wouldn't be able to attend them all given Petrol prices but I love reading about them. Reading how so and so has developed something else in their game, which in turn builds it up for me more when I next play them etc.

Co-organising it this year with Gaz has been very much a chore at times and it's obviously affected the UK Champs this year but it's going to affect next year too because I'll be damned if I'm going to help with the one next year if people can't be bothered to help themselves. I don't wish to come across as arrogant, but at the end of the day, if KOBRA don't organise the UK Champs then who will? If people havent got the time or the inclination to host a small 4 man tournament then a massive 10+ UK Champs is going to be pushing it.
Not having Rob to help organise and push for attendances is going to leave a big gaping hole in the UK and if KOBRA don't step up again to make it a reality then we'r even more up sh*t creek - I honestly can't see a 2010 tournament happening.
Then again, maybe with this very real and sad reality, perhaps it will inspire others to grab hold of the baton and in turn, inspire more tournaments around the UK.

I don't like to say it but I fear that the UK Champs 2009 will be the last big, UK Only tournament for a while. :( It's certainly the last one I'm gonna help organise. Too much hardwork :(


******************************************************

Just one final thing I want to add...from the very first time I truly discovered the KOA it seems that a lot of players seemingly retire, or don't attend this or that because they know deep down that they'l always be able to pick up where they left off in a few years but in my opinion, this is a massive risk to take. Who knows where we will be in years to come. We are all that is left of Kick Off 2 players and sure there might be a few newbies but ALL TOO OFTEN, these newbies experience something quite unpleasant when they are obliterated 10-0 in their first game in 25 years.
Therefore, when you havent got the regulars keeping the place alive then who else is? In other words, if the regular players stop playing then that as they say...is that - and I might as well re-sign up to online SWOS or play FIFA/PES on my own with non of the laughter and excitement that I get when playing KO2 with friends.
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Bounty Bob » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:33 pm

Steve1977 wrote:You wouldn't be alone BountyBob.
On a Wednesday afternoon?
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Menace » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:09 am

I'm guilty of never attending these events (only been to one in Copenhagen). Family issues is the main issue here and that is sadly not about to change for the better.

However, I was thinking - has there been any initiatives to join forces with the dark side? ie. the Sensi people, and maybe co-host events? Perhaps piggy-back them somehow, as they're seemingly the more 'successful' community based on appearances at events.

Perhaps some KO'ers would enjoy playing Sensi also - and some of the Sensi crowd might feel like giving KO a go also..?
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby hogstrom » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:27 pm

Amusing reading. My first thought is that England seem to suffer more than any other country from "retirement". Germany, for instance, have a group of four players (Sascha´s group) that have vanished, but it is only three. In comparisation to that, I fail to count all brittish players that have retired. I also fail to understand why England is the nr:1 (by far) country if looking at retirements.

Menace wrote:I'm guilty of never attending these events (only been to one in Copenhagen). Family issues is the main issue here and that is sadly not about to change for the better.


I fully understand kickoff2 is out of the question if someone in the family is ill or similiar, hopefully this is not you situation, Menace? On the other hand, and this seem to be a common excuse, If "family issues" is the same as having wife and a couple of children, Im in that situation, then I cant see why that would stop anyone from playing kickoff2 once a year. Being part of a family should not be that same as being in jail. Then it is better to say as it is, I have lost interest. Very few, I would not, be upset if that was the case. It´s normal to lose interest for kickoff2, at least if you look at situation in England...
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby waynie » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:34 pm

Robert Swift wrote:We're now reaching the critical point where, if people like Waynie, Beards, Ely, Stainy, BBob, Haydn, Pee, Harper, Ben G, Simon all continue with this retirement shit then it will be the KOA that is finished


It's a bit harsh to be included in that list, let alone head it considering the company I have been put with!

I must admit that I have not checked the forums for a while, however, I was contacted on Facebook and by phone regarding the UKCs. On both media, I expressed regret at not going and explained that this was due to the fact that I have to mark a large number of student dissertations, which are due to be submitted at the end of this month. I have not had a response to my Facebook comment, but I understood from the phonecall that my reason was accepted. Nothing was said in that phonecall about any retirement or resignation.

I have not suddenly lost the drive to play KO2, although the drive has admittedly been in gradual decline over the last two years. I have always tried to be transparent as far as the KOA is concerned, and one can see my diminishing hunger from the critical assessments I used to give of my own performance - it's all in the threads. And I have been flamed for being honest about my evaluation of my game and how I no longer had the hunger..."false modesty"..."just want instant gratification".

I can see things from the organisers' point of view and can empathise how it can feel to not not be appreciated. I really can. Two years ago, I organised the Runty Champs with good intentions and it got shot down by the first few responses to the topic. When I came round to getting attendees, I got a paltry 7-8 confirmations, despite the free accommodation on offer. And all this was without any financial commitment on my part, so I can only imagine what the organisers are going through. No wonder they don't want to organise another one!

I once got criticised for "not being ready for the world of work"...but I think abandoning my work to play a 20 year old computer game would really justify that statement! Seriously though, if I didn't have a prior commitment to my students to have their dissertations marked that weekend, I would have attended. But it would not have been for the KO2, more so to "clear my name", mingle with others, and to help enable Steve E to be less out of pocket and improve his chances of going to the WC.

Hope you guys understand.
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Torchiador » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:51 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
Robert Swift wrote:We're now reaching the critical point where, if people like Waynie, Beards, Ely, Stainy, BBob, Haydn, Pee, Harper, Ben G, Simon all continue with this retirement shit then it will be the KOA that is finished, not just them.
I haven't retired, thought my position was clear. Weekends=spend with my son. No argument is going to change this priority. KO2 without slide=not interested. Have it on a Wednesday afternoon with slide and I'll be there. Although I suspect I may be alone at that tournament!

Well, yuo can manage to have it both ways staying with your son on Wednesday and to play ko2 on week end. a couple of times per year.
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Menace » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:42 pm

hogstrom wrote:
Menace wrote:I'm guilty of never attending these events (only been to one in Copenhagen). Family issues is the main issue here and that is sadly not about to change for the better.


I fully understand kickoff2 is out of the question if someone in the family is ill or similiar, hopefully this is not you situation, Menace?


This is probably a bit off-topic, and I don't reply to excuse myself (nor am I asking for pity) - also, I don't want to go into details but someone in my family suffers from a chronic mental illness that requires that I'm around 24/7. Going anywhere - even to work on a daily basis - can be tough sometimes. Going out for beers with mates is rarely happening - and going on travels, abroad is just impossible. Life's a bitch sometimes, but luckily I have access to the internetz so that I can socialize a bit anyway! ;)
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Re: To the 'retired' UK Kick Off 2 players

Postby Steve1977 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:55 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
Steve1977 wrote:You wouldn't be alone BountyBob.
On a Wednesday afternoon?


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