Fouling and referees

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gdh82
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:16 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:Me too, it's bizarre really. You're happy, so everyone should be. :roll:


Ouch! Put the claws away Bbob and let it go.

Your post is plain wrong and so last year. I'm sure you'll agree that me and you did this debate to death, including discussions about comprimises all of which you flatly rejected, and then there was your outburst. I hoped that you'd kinda got if off your chest but this latching on to autoslide comments suggests otherwise. I say this not to provoke you further because continued discussions on this matter feels an extremely dull and utterly pointless exercise.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:22 pm

gdh82 wrote:
Bounty Bob wrote:Me too, it's bizarre really. You're happy, so everyone should be. :roll:


Ouch! Put the claws away Bbob and let it go.

Your post is plain wrong and so last year. I'm sure you'll agree that me and you did this debate to death, including discussions about comprimises all of which you flatly rejected, and then there was your outburst. I hoped that you'd kinda got if off your chest but this latching on to autoslide comments suggests otherwise. I say this not to provoke you further because continued discussions on this matter feels an extremely dull and utterly pointless exercise.

Leave it out Garry, you started it with the auto-what comment. If that isn't so last year, then I don't know what is. Every time I read something like that, it's like rubbing my nose in the fact that the game I once enjoyed is now dead to me. If you don't want a comment back, then don't make one in the first place.

Why wouldn't I latch on to the comment? I used to love playing Kick Off. Obviously I'd still ike to play, I have a lot of friends in the community, which I thought would have been obvious after turning up to see them at Luton. So to see your smug little smiley, was bound to bring out the worst in me.

If you enjoy it without pushing it down my throat, then I'll let it go but don't expect me to not be upset when I see a reminder.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 pm

_glenn wrote:
hogstrom wrote:I have read thrue everything about the latest tournament in Luton last week and Glenn mention in his post about in one of the threads about a dive he made in one of his matches. He explained how he looked at it. With autoslides removed, one could argue that "diving" is more "ok" now. In short, with autoslides removed from the match he have no regrets diving over an sliding player in the penalty area. His opponent have decided to throw himself sliding in the penalty-area and takes a risk with that move, Glenn belives it is ok to punish him.


My point is that when the auto-slide is removed, it is your own choice to slide. Volker tried to foul my attacker (at least i believe he did) when he was through on goal. He tried to foul him outside the box, and missed. In real football, a foul when a player is through on goal, would result in a red card. In kick off the referee does not consider where the foul happens, he gives a card based on statistics and sometimes random. Therefore i'd say it is just as "unfair" to foul someone intentially outside the box just to stop them from scoring, as it is to take a dive.


Of course its every player's choice how they approach the game but I can't say I'm persuaded by this its-okay-to-dive-now-auto-slides-are-removed argument. To me this is like a pickpocket arguing that because no one carries cash on them anymore, its not so bad if he steals direct from the bank account instead!

Interesting point about professional fouls v professional dives tho. Not sure why but dives somehow still seem worse to me. Maybe using negative tactics to stop a goal seems less bad than using them to gain one ?
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby waynie » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:45 pm

I feel I need to say something, Garry.

Referees are an important part of my game...or were when I took the time to learn the characteristics of each one. And I based a large part of my gameplay around them; harsh ref, dive loads; lenient ref, foul loads.

Removing slides thus did not help my game and rendered a lot of my preparation and training obsolete. It also diminished the fun I was having in tournaments because there were less opportunities to dive. Yes, I love diving because it annoys people and breaks up their concentration. People used to hate playing against me - I think I even had a reputation of some sort.

You were a big driving force in getting slides out of the game and we have since had several large tournaments without them. The way it's going, we may lose slides from the next WC.

When a group of us who still like slides play a slide enabled tournament, we are criticised for not inviting others and making it secret. Your gesture of compromise for KORA vs KOBRA tournaments is well-intentioned and appreciated, but it does further alienate us. The message it gives to us is that you hate slides, but you are willing to put up with them, even travel 200 miles, just to please us. If I am to host a tournament, I don't want to entertain guests who are reluctant to cover the distance to turn up and are clearly not going to enjoy themselves.

In some ways, I am happy for you. Both for your progress as a KO2 player and the enjoyment you have as a regular forum poster. You have given a lot to the KOA and are usually the first to welcome newcomers and anyone needing help. But when I read "Hi! I'm Garry and my life's soooo much better now I'm slide free" at the bottom of every single post you make, it feels like you are just rubbing our faces in it. You have had your way and most of us have dealt with it. There's no need to gloat about it.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:47 pm

Mark, You've clearly taken my auto-what comment way too seriously and if I'd known this would happen I wouldn't have posted it. Besides it was aimed at Sutty too. I'd gladly delete it now if you want ? Btw I meant you latching on to Sutty's comment and the PES quote, not my post.

I am sorry this has upset you and want to respond to your other points but I'm short of time right now and will do this by pm anyway.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:54 pm

waynie wrote:But when I read "Hi! I'm Garry and my life's soooo much better now I'm slide free" at the bottom of every single post you make, it feels like you are just rubbing our faces in it. You have had your way and most of us have dealt with it. There's no need to gloat about it.


Will respond to your other points later but the signature idea is not meant to be gloating at all. This was started by James or Steve C as a kind of alcohols anonymous spoof. It was light joke about our feeling of being 'free'. Again I'm sorry it has been taken the wrong way but will remove it immediately.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Tripod » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:33 pm

Anyway, this is just my point of view. I think the game would be funnier if 2 fouls by the same player would always result in a red card. So, I will make an offer to all future opponents. If you like, we can agree to use Willis or Zappa in our games. Please be aware, though, that this will probably be an advantage to me since I am so bad at intentional fouling, so you might give up some of your edge. Indeed, when I refused to change referee with Gianni in London in the aborted game, I didn't do it to increase fun, but to hurt Gianni's potential benefit from intentional fouls. But this offer is made with fun in mind. I think the gameplay would be better if we played with Willis or Zappa.


So, this is the only point you're making? You have no problem with fouling, you're just offering to use a harsh referee because it would give you an advantage? Hmm, I wonder how many people will take up that offer - you're too damn good anyway! :)

I think I don't foul much in KOA tournaments - and I punished two fouls near the box with direct free kicks in Luton, yeah! But it really is an integral part of the game and here at home, playing my pal, we sometimes really get going on the fouls (while in other matches there isn't a single foul). Once Tobi gets a player sent off he tries to get as many sent off as possible, it's a game within the game for him. And I'll even try to match him at times.

Anyway, I don't think it's anything to worry about. Waynie, great post, though I think I actually like the breaks when the ref blows the whistle, you have many other ways of annoying me, but fouling isn't one of them :) Rob's point is fair, too. I don't know how many players would have been sent off vs Sandro for trying to stop a KO lob.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Robert Swift » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:48 pm

Hang on a minute. Some people are having an argument, getting angry, and exchanging abuse - without me being involved - this is WRONG.

I am here now. You may continue.

I agree with Waynie that ref knowledge is a skill. And I still don't understand how something as minor as slide inclusion/exclusion should determine whether people attend an event.

John, Panayotis and I had 16 friendlies on Sunday after the tournament and, because my WC disk had been killed by someone's drive at the tournament, we had to revert to the newest KO2CV disk I could find..... Manchester 06! We were lucky even to have A=B! The re-emergence of slides was a bit of a shock to all of us and required a couple of minutes' adaptation but we sure as hell enjoyed our KO2 for the 3-4 hours after that.

The idea of refusing to play because slides are in, or out, is just utterly absurd to me and not something I can comprehend at all. And the supporting arguments don't really wash either, particularly the slippery slope argument which is akin to Haydn saying we shouldn't have a GB team in the olympics because it takes us closer to some other, independent and non-consequential event.

Get a sense of perspective people. If any of you tries to use this as an excuse for not attending the UK Championships this year then I will rip of your head and shit down your neck. I mean it. If necessary we can have a vote, like the WC, and take a majority decision by who turns up on the day.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby dnielsen » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:59 pm

Tripod wrote:So, this is the only point you're making? You have no problem with fouling, you're just offering to use a harsh referee because it would give you an advantage?


Well, I have no ethical problem with fouling, I just think that gameplay would be slightly more satisfying if fouls were punished harder. So I will say to my opponents "come on, let's create an interesting defensive risk/reward decision element and an appropriate offensive reward scheme in our games by choosing Zappa". And to your pal, I will say "come on, let's play with Zappa, I guarantee you you can achieve at least 4 red cards then". :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Robert Swift » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:09 pm

One of the problems is, defending against certain tactics (433, Falcon) it's far too easy for players to get behind your wing backs and so fouling is the only way to catch them up. There are certain auto-goals (like BLC) that can be well-defended by a foul (although if the foul is too late and the free kick on the line, it can be just as deadly). Now, as far as I am concerned, if any opponent uses a repetitive attack against me - whether a corner, KO Lob or BLC etc - I retain the right to disrupt it with repetitive fouling. There is already a RISK of getting a strict referee anyway. Making it a certainty is basically removing a key defensive option and promoting auto-goals. We all know that, if I player is sent off for fouling in such a situation, it then gives the attacking player the option to score the auto-goal all over again without even a player to challenge him.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Steve1977 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:25 pm

="Bounty Bob"

Me too, it's bizarre really. You're happy, so everyone should be. :roll:


C'mon Mark...it seems it should read "I'm unhappy so everyone else should" :wink:

Also what's with this 'the way the game used to be'??? Kick Off 2 is as it's always been and to play a tournament all you need is to satisfy a very basic critera. You don't have to have autoslides deactivated.

This is the perogative of whomever is taking the trouble to host. We'v had Alkis using them, Robert Swift using them... but strange how I don't see these guys confronted. Maybe it's because they'r a more difficult target.
Infact, I reckon that Gaz should be banned because he's obviously using black magic and mind bending techniques which would put Emperor Palpatine to shame. Techniques which have nullified the free will of...JamesB, Panayoutis, Alkis, RobS etc. and forced them to prefer no autoslides. Infact, I reckon Gaz has also caused the global economic crisis too,the fucker.

The message it gives to us is that you hate slides, but you are willing to put up with them, even travel 200 miles, just to please us. If I am to host a tournament, I don't want to entertain guests who are reluctant to cover the distance to turn up and are clearly not going to enjoy themselves.


We also dislike A>B but we had no qualms in travelling for that tournament just before the world cup. Trust me, I wouldn't travel all that way to 'put up' with the conditions. I don't give a damn to be honest what the rules are because... A) It's the choice of whomever is hosting... B) Whichever rules are being used we'l all certain to have a good time.

But when I read "Hi! I'm Garry and my life's soooo much better now I'm slide free" at the bottom of every single post you make, it feels like you are just rubbing our faces in it. You have had your way and most of us have dealt with it. There's no need to gloat about it.
[/quote]
Don't want this to come across as if I'm answering for Gaz, but don't other people have similar signatures? Regardless, I thought the KOA had a sense of humour about such things. I'm going to go off in huff now with Robert Swift due to him reminding me (through his sig) that he won the last tournament I hosted. Ditto for James. Barstewards. :eeko:

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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:52 pm

Steve1977 wrote:
="Bounty Bob"

Me too, it's bizarre really. You're happy, so everyone should be. :roll:


C'mon Mark...it seems it should read "I'm unhappy so everyone else should" :wink:
If the slide were still in, I would not be smug about it. Not saying everyone else should be unhappy, but don't be surprised if I make a comment when someone is being smug.

Steve1977 wrote:This is the perogative of whomever is taking the trouble to host. We'v had Alkis using them, Robert Swift using them... but strange how I don't see these guys confronted. Maybe it's because they'r a more difficult target.

Me not confronting Robert. You have no idea how funny that is!!!! We've had some fantastic fall outs, including a recent one in private. But all seems to be resolved now. If someone pisses me off, I'll let them know, don't worry about that. In fact, Alkis is a cunt but can't tell him because he's not here anymore. :lol:
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:53 pm

Robert Swift wrote:If any of you tries to use this as an excuse for not attending the UK Championships this year then I will rip of your head and shit down your neck. I mean it.
Then start brewing some smelly stuff.

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