Fouling and referees

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dnielsen
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Fouling and referees

Postby dnielsen » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:16 am

Hi guys, I know that opinions are like a**holes (everybody has one), but as Athens 2002 showed us, we all feel like airing our a**hole in public from time to time. :lol:

So I will just babble a little here about fouling and referees, from my own completely personal and subjective point of view. I will not suggest any rule changes. :)

First, from an ethical point of view, I have nothing against intentional fouling (or diving, or KO-lobbing). The general way I see things like is that when I am playing a game, I will set out to beat the game, whatever that means. If this means that I will be provoked to do funny and challenging things, then it is a good game. If it means that I have to do boring things, it is a bad game, (and I will not play it). In a competitive setting of a 2-player game, this means that I will do whatever is possible within the rules/game mechanics to maximize my chances of victory, and I would expect my opponent to do the same.

Now, it is only natural that it happens that a game is not perfect in that it provokes you to do things that spoil the fun gameplay. A natural inclination for many people will then be to attempt to make adjustments to the game mechanics/rules so that these fun-spoiling things are avoided. Examples of this are friends who make informal rules about no KO-lobbing, or no intentional fouling. They agree to play an altered version of the game. This is in my view also perfectly reasonable. I am no purist.

In fact, such changes upon agreement are of the same nature as decisions about all the other default rules. Which teams to use, which tactics to allow, whether to play with wind etc. etc. When making such decisions, we are guided by our desire to make sure that the game we then play competitively will be a funny game for the people involved.

With regard to fouling. First, I am personally not used to foul intentionally as much as, say, Alkis is. This is only natural since I have been practicing mainly against the CPU, and then it is pointless. So I am not yet used to taking full advantage of fouls. I want it to be clear that I would benefit more than most if intentional fouls were taken out of the game or punished harder. This is no secret. (Please also know that I mostly do not care about tweaking or preserving rules to help my winning chances.)

Secondly, I do not think that intentional fouls in themselves are a bad thing (=boring thing that destroys the gameplay) for the game. They take skill to perform, and there is a funny challenge in deciding when a slide for a foul is a good option and when it is not.

Thirdly, we are emotionally attached to our beloved fouls just as we are to many other aspects of the game. While some people would be happy to see them go, others would hate it.

My point of view is that, with most referees, repeated intentional fouling makes the gameplay less funny. A foul here and there could be OK, but when a foul is a good/the best option whenever the opponet got past your Cox or R.Curtis, then the flow of the game is damaged. It makes defending less challenging, and the reward for managing to get a free run is diminished, which is unsatisfying for the fouled player.

My point of view is that, IF the game had had no auto-slides in 2001, then it would have been great to make Zappa or Willis the default referee. Two strikes and you are out. Then it would be a funny challenge to save that one free foul for a really important situation, and have the speed of perception to indeed use the foul when that situation occurs.

Oh yeah, I should add one thing about slide tackles that are not meant to be fouls. They are not really an important part of the game. I think most people mainly use them to block a shot at goal. In fact, I think the game might have been funnier if there hadn't been slide tackles at all :lol:.

Anyway, this is just my point of view. I think the game would be funnier if 2 fouls by the same player would always result in a red card. So, I will make an offer to all future opponents. If you like, we can agree to use Willis or Zappa in our games. Please be aware, though, that this will probably be an advantage to me since I am so bad at intentional fouling, so you might give up some of your edge. Indeed, when I refused to change referee with Gianni in London in the aborted game, I didn't do it to increase fun, but to hurt Gianni's potential benefit from intentional fouls. But this offer is made with fun in mind. I think the gameplay would be better if we played with Willis or Zappa.

I am pretty certain that someone like Alkis will not take up my offer, since he is so used to and good at intentional fouling (which I DON'T think is something to criticise, as already said). For this reason (and other reasons), I also don't like to suggest that Willis or Zappa be the default referee in tournaments. It's too late for this, and the option never really existed since we only recently had the option to remove unintended slides.

But if you don't like (too much) fouling, then I will be happy to play with Willis or Zappa in our game.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:53 pm

Amazing. I just had a long discussion with Haydn about how kick off is changing. I said to him, the next thing will be referees! :lol:
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Robert Swift » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:28 pm

The refs you suggest are not the right ones.

Zappa can ignore 5 fouls in a row then give a straight red. The ref for what you want is V.Jones. Yellow card every offence.

Unfortunately, this 'fair play' rule can't work while people use kick off lobs. One of the only defences we can resort to for the KO lob is to charge into the centre circle hammering the fire button. In the World Cup I got Barber sent off early against Knut, for this reason (the ref was G.Penn) and the resulting draw cost me qualification.

So, remove KO lobs first, and then we can implement fair play.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby dnielsen » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:51 pm

First, the mentioning of the name "Knut" and 2001 in the same sentence by you somehow makes this the most entertaining forum post I have ever read. :) :) :)

Secondly, I beg to differ on the technical details. Zappa will always give a red card to a player the second time he commits a foul (but indeed, if 5 different players commit a foul, he will not give a red yet). Well, not always, only until there are, what, 6 players left on a team!? Then he will give yellows and no reds. Willis will always give yellow-red to any player committing two fouls, with the same 6 player exception.

I can't remember the frequency with witch these two referees overlook fouls, but they rarely do it.

I can't remember anything about Jones. Screech is the one who dish out red cards at random, about 20% of the time if I remember correctly from that thread where the referee algorithms were published.

Anyway, great to see you back in action in the KO2 part of the forum, I have really missed your long essays the last few days since the London International. Especially since I have been reading a lot of old tournament threads. You are such a keen observer and communicator. Whereas Bounty Bob and Haydn keep all their secrets to themselves :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS. My "offer" is actually just an ingredient in my malicious plan of joining the KO-lobbers and see my opponent helplessly trying to stop me without fouling me and have Nicholls sent off. :)
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:52 pm

Robert Swift wrote:One of the only defences we can resort to for the KO lob is to charge into the centre circle hammering the fire button.
You should not be anywhere near the fire button when defending KO lobs.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:54 pm

dnielsen wrote:Whereas Bounty Bob and Haydn keep all their secrets to themselves :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There's no secrets here. Don't get me started on changes, just ask Garry! I love KO2 for what it was, if I want changes and improvements, I can play FIFA, which is actually a very good game now.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Robert Swift » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:48 am

PES2009 is actually better though.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:38 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
Robert Swift wrote:One of the only defences we can resort to for the KO lob is to charge into the centre circle hammering the fire button.
You should not be anywhere near the fire button when defending KO lobs.


What Bbob said.

Perhaps Robert meant 'one of the desparate defences to the KO lob...' I don't know how to do it myself but I have noticed how top players dispossess my attempts without sliding. Then again, I may not be that good at KO lobs either!
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:48 pm

Robert Swift wrote:PES2009 is actually better though.
PES stopped being better with the '08 editions of the games, it needs a good re-working. It used to be far and away the best game but unforunately it is living up to it's name of evolution. A process that takes millions of years to see significant change is not what's needed in an anually updated franchise. The FIFA games have grown massively in the last couple of years, they knew they weren't good enough and made a real effort. The PES team were on top of the hill and got lazy.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:56 pm

Going back to the topic, I'm not a big fan of repetitive fouling but I know too keen on ultra strict refs either. Accidental fouls can easily creep into a game due to a mis-timed header or where you are dispossessed just as you are about to shoot etc.

I would say that some refs are too lenient though. Of course its realistic that refs don't see every single foul in a match but it does seem that some refs (I'm not up on the stats) are so blind they seem to miss much more than they see or very rarely award cards and this as a result positively encourage the use of the fouling tactic. With this in mind, maybe it might not be a bad idea if the refs that really need a white cane anyway, shouldn't be considered fit for competitive matches! I can't say I feel that strongly about this tho.

Going to the other extreme I must just mention a fantastic jff option imo I think came from Alkis or from one of his tournaments. How about having a ref-less option!!!! No fouls at all are ever awarded. Play this with a walled pitch and you'd have non-stop KO2 action until a goal was scored!!!! Less Kick Off2 and more Kill Off2 :evil: 8) 8) 8) In fact I'll post this to the wish-list thread now!
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby suttydroitwich » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:07 pm

i prefer the game as it is.. no changes at all

i was surprised the autoslides pissed so many people off, I find them quite amusing!
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:51 pm

suttydroitwich wrote:i prefer the game as it is.. no changes at all

i was surprised the autoslides pissed so many people off, I find them quite amusing!

A kindred!!! :D
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:35 pm

Bounty Bob wrote:
suttydroitwich wrote:i prefer the game as it is.. no changes at all

i was surprised the autoslides pissed so many people off, I find them quite amusing!

A kindred!!! :D


I'm surprised they're still being talked about! Auto-what ? :D
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