Fouling and referees

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Steve Camber
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Steve Camber » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:04 am

Feck, I am glad you bunch of fairies were not around when we had wars about Oracle Versus 1.4 and Team A == Team B.. the signatures that we used back then were a lot more offensive than the slide free joke ones that a few of us used.

Really, this is so boring now. Waynie comes on the forum after vanishing for months and quiting KO2 cause he played shite at a tournament to have a moan and all of a sudden we have regularw like Steve E leaving...
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby JamesHBeard » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:06 am

Frack,

I was just about to post the exact same thing that Steve C just posted. :eeko:
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:24 am

Freshmaker wrote:I also remember actually beeing quite annoyed with all the "slide-free" signatures and such, not that I've ever been a part of the discussion, but I could see the pisstake in it. Gaz' "slide-free" article in the WC-Aftertouch is also something I remember with bad feelings.


FFS people, if anyone didn't like my, James' or Steve C's signature why the hell didn't you say anything ? As I've said before if anything the piss-take was at our expense, that we'd been freed of our demon! I and I'm sure the other guys had no intention to annoy others in the way described. As soon as Waynie made his post about it, the signature was instantly removed. This could have happened ages ago if you'd only said so. :(

I have to also just point out that the "slide free" article was nothing of the sort! It was a celebration of KO2CV and my guide to it's features. It covered about 10 points (A=B, PBD mix, Slow Motion Replays, Walled Pitches, Pitch Graphics etc etc) and only one of which was auto-slides and even then I gave both sides of the argument so was neutral. You wouldn't expect me not to mention this option would you, but to call it a "slide free" article is a distortion and plainly not true. Its purpose was to highlight the immense achievements not to cause bad feeling ???

Freshmaker wrote:At the same time; the game is smoother and nicer without the slides, I have to admit, it's just that I don't like the eternal, ongoing tempering with the o.g.


Thanks though Jorn for saying what you said about the positives of being slide free. This thread has largely been very anti slide-free otherwise.

No doubt I will have offended someone else simply by stating this!!! :roll: Man, this thread feels f*cked up and don't blame Mr Evil at all....
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Rodolfo » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:04 pm

Garry wrote:FFS people, if anyone didn't like my, James' or Steve C's signature why the hell didn't you say anything ? As I've said before if anything the piss-take was at our expense, that we'd been freed of our demon!



I would have never imagined that anyone, after all these years, after all those gatherings, would get annoy because of a signature :shock:
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Tripod » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:34 pm

We've been at this point before and we aren't making any headway. If I want to blame somebody, it'd have to be Mr. Camber. :) His tireless work has given us the opportunity to make just about any change we want. There's no question in my mind we'd happily be playing with the original versions (1.4e and Oracle) if there was no CV in sight. Yes, we had slippery slope arguments already about PBD and A=B. Fact is that the A=B and PBD selectable have made it possible to hold the tournament in Luton the way we did, we couldn't have had a league format nor as many games without these two changes. They allow us a flexibility we just didn't have before and I'd say more games vs more opponents = more fun. And it's entirely possible to still hold tournaments with A>B and PBD/NOPBD for both players. But these two changes together allow for fair one legged competitions and that at the very least leads to being able to play twice as many opponents in the same amount of games/time.

I believe I have stated this before: These two important changes have to be viewed separately and I will not accept the argument "well, we've pushed those through, now anything goes". Yes, they change the game but they change the tournament formats, too. That cannot be said for removing autoslides, that only changes the game.

And now it seems we have two sides: One hates the autoslide, the other one loves it. To be honest, if the groups are fairly even, I'd say the autoslide-free-wishers should pull back. They are welcome to play autoslide free tournaments as much as they like but they should not boycott competitions simply because the autoslide remains. The pro-autoslide group does have the imho important argument in their favour, that the autoslides are originally in the game. Only this group it seems to me has the right to boycott and protest to aid their course. Ok, that's a very moral argument and it can probably be refuted.

Nonetheless, I think the size of the community is the most important factor. If we find ourselves splitting up into smaller groups it'll be bad for the whole KOA. From my point of view, the "it was originally in the game" stance is so strong that a change, say for a WC where we vote on the issue, that a simply majority for the removal of autoslides is not enough. Only if a high percentage of the community (80%?) is absolutely for removing the autoslides the other group should cave in - and hopefully accept the change and still attend tournaments.

I say all this despite what I wrote in my first Luton summary where I said that I probably now support the removal of autoslides. But I also made it clear that I don't view it as a major issue, my opponents damage me far more than a few unintended slides in the game (which work both ways anyway). I have played KO2 since Luton and have never turned off the autoslides and the impact is minimal imho. So, as always, I'm not fussy about this, if I am asked to vote about it I'll just say I don't care.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby gdh82 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:15 pm

Good post, Alex. I thought your arguments were very reasonable though would make a a couple of points...

Tripod wrote:And now it seems we have two sides: One hates the autoslide, the other one loves it. To be honest, if the groups are fairly even, I'd say the autoslide-free-wishers should pull back. They are welcome to play autoslide free tournaments as much as they like but they should not boycott competitions simply because the autoslide remains. The pro-autoslide group does have the imho important argument in their favour, that the autoslides are originally in the game. Only this group it seems to me has the right to boycott and protest to aid their course.


There is a problem with its-not-the-game-we-grew-up-with argument, I think. For example, those of us who's original game didn't have PBD - we too could boycott and protest using this argument on that basis that we didn't originally play having to defend PBD attacks etc. Of course I'd wouldn't do that as I'm more flexible than that. Besides I can see how others like the greater control it gives their strikers, which, incidentally, has a loose parallel with the greater control over defenders when playing slide free imo.

Tripod wrote:Nonetheless, I think the size of the community is the most important factor. If we find ourselves splitting up into smaller groups it'll be bad for the whole KOA.


I agree but think its worth pointing out that the size of the boycott problem is not that large. I'd rather it was none but as far as I know only Mark B is prepared to boycott ? I'm sure I'll be put right otherwise. It's my impression that generally speaking most players aren't that fussed either way about slides. I could be wrong about that though.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Bounty Bob » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:13 pm

gdh82 wrote:I agree but think its worth pointing out that the size of the boycott problem is not that large. I'd rather it was none but as far as I know only Mark B is prepared to boycott ? I'm sure I'll be put right otherwise. It's my impression that generally speaking most players aren't that fussed either way about slides. I could be wrong about that though.



boy⋅cott   [boi-kot] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1. to combine in abstaining from, or preventing dealings with, as a means of intimidation or coercion.

If anybody truly thinks I\m boycotting anything, then they either don't know the meaning of the words, or haven't listened to my views. I'm not trying to coerce anyone into thinking the way I do, and I'm not trying to intimidate anyone. I'm resigned to the fact that the majority of the active UK kick off scene has entered a slide free existence, but I don't have to like it. I'm certainly not trying to make, or expecting anyone, to change back to preferring slides.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby dnielsen » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:25 pm

My feeling is that we are in a paradox since we are at the same time too conservative and too intent on improving.

The thing is that a very large fraction of the KOA prefers to play KO2 in one way and one way only. Since some pretty arbitrary choices in the beginning of the KOA were made, there has been a huge deal of conservatism against changing them. Examples are stuff like 2x5, random referee, normal pitch, only International A vs. B.

There are many benefits of sticking to these default settings, and each choice has a specific reasoning of its own. Basically, the idea is that people should know what to expect when they enter the World Cup, the main event of the KOA. And they can play without having to learn a lot of new stuff, whether they are new or old in the KOA.

Then sometimes a new idea is aired. Examples are 4 extra tactics, and removal of undesired slides. Then there is a huge fight. And then a new static state is reached.

The thing is, both those people against changes and those for a specific change, they both think that the job is to find "the best way" to play KO2. Those who are happy about the extra tactics now think we can't change back.

This is probably the thing I dislike most about the fight for and against undesired slides. The proponents of this change genuinely think they have now created a better KO2. No matter how you go about it, this is in effect an intolerant point of view. It doesn't accept that people can disagree and both be right. So, I have to say that I perfectly recognize the feelings Jorn expressed. Think about it: What if I put in my signature "Hi, I'm 32 years old and I'm happy that Zappa is now our default referee", if 49% of the KOA disliked that change? People would hate it.

Another observation is: I just reviewed my experience from the first Danish Championship from 1991. The settings were close to the default KOA WC settings, but with a significant difference in the teams used (and we had no PBD choice or A=B obviously). Still, my overriding feeling was that, hey, it's amazing how similar these two things felt. It's KO2 either way.

What I would like is that people think more openly about "playing KO2 in many ways". This is a motto in the chess world. Something like "chess is in many ways".

I perfectly understand and agree that KOA WC settings cannot change for something entirely different (like random pitch and wind).

But outside that, I think people should be more tolerant of other ways of playing. Both Garry and Mark Bishop. I know the counter-argument: "Yeah, but people will always want to practice for the KOA WC, so the WC settings will in effect become de facto default settings for all tournaments."

THIS is the argument or thinking that I think it would be great to loosen up. Think about it: Gianni normally plays with random pitch in Milano. He is the World Champion. Does this not show that settings used throughout the year are actually quite inconsequential for your ability to compete in the World Cup?

Mark often says that his feeling is that, well, KO2 is now too far off from the game he once knew and enjoyed. He says this because he has a feeling that the current KO2 is static and can only be interpreted in its current static form. Garry says he likes the current KO2 without autoslides. He ALSO says this because he has a feeling that the current KO2 is static and can only be interpreted in its current static form.

I think we should think of KO2 as being not so static as the WC settings dictate. Then we can play more tournaments with more varied settings, just for fun. We can think of this as just a challenge, a fun challenge.

This is not a radical point of view. In my opinion it is LESS radical than saying that now we have introduced 4 extra tactics and we can't change back. The radical point of view in my opinion is that we should only play "the best form" of KO2. There is no such thing. Besides, I think lockout should be banned in WCs, but whatever? Why care so much about it and not just make some choices from tournament to tournament throughout the year, with an OPEN mind, and then GENUINELY try to find the fun either way?

I know that Garry attempted a compromise in England. I think it failed in part because it wasn't really genuine in its acceptance of the other part (both ways). In particular, how could Mark Bishop find his point of view accepted when he constantly heard that KO2 without autoslides is so much better? This claim crept its way in in every goddam tournament report for some period.

So, my recommendation is that people:

1) Strongly separate WC settings discussions from all other discussions about how to play KO2.

2) Are more open-minded about playing KO2 in many ways and don't try to put down other peoples preferences. This actually goes towards Mark Bishop as well. My suspicion is that he could be willing to do this if only people "on the other side" demonstrated a similar tolerance and openness towards his general conservative approach.

In an ideal world, Garry would say, "hey, let's try to play with pitch boundaries", Mark would say, "ok, cool, let's try that", then he would say 5 games later "hey, that was actually quite fun, but I would like to play a few old-style games now as well", and then Garry would say "sure, let's do that", and, they both have fun for the whole session. I genuinely believe that KO2 is such a great game that fun can be had with it in many, many different ways.

I am sorry if I have misrepresented Mark's or Garry's or other people's point of view. I will only be happy if you would bother to correct me.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby JamesHBeard » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:42 pm

What if I put in my signature "Hi, I'm 32 years old and I'm happy that Zappa is now our default referee", if 49% of the KOA disliked that change? People would hate it.


I would never ever get offended if someone expresses their preferences of KO2 in their KO2 forum signature, but then.. I am not a baby or as Steve Camber said in an earlier post..... a "bunch of fairies".

These frackin fairies get offended far too easily basically. They need to get some backbone and try living in the REAL world.

I would be interested in finding out how many of those fairies were also outraged at Muslims for them being upset about cartoons being published in a newspaper.... (I bet they even put.. I support Danish Bacon on their signatures....)

I am not bothered if this post offends anyone as you are even offended by a simple signature statement. The only way not to offend is for everyone to stop posting all together, so why bother trying not to offend.

FRACK EVERYONE.. no offense.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Steve Camber » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:46 pm

Frack,

I was just about to post the exact same thing that Jim B just posted :eeko:
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby dnielsen » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:55 pm

I wouldn't care if people wrote in their signature:

"Preferred KO2 settings: No wind, random pitch, etc. etc."

But I would care if a group of people teamed up and wrote:

"Hi, I am so happy that we only play with Int. A vs B"

just after a long discussion where I had tried to open up for the possibility of playing also with national teams.

I would not be offended by people preferring a different setting, but I certainly would be offended if people constantly reminded me how happy they are that I can no longer play with my preferred setting. It is in effect just social bullying.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Rodolfo » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:09 pm

I see it as freedom of expression instead. I do not see lobbying as something wrong.
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Re: Fouling and referees

Postby Steve Camber » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:18 pm

Lobbing is also perfectly acceptable. Well, unless it's from the KO of course! :lol:
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