UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby Noodlebug » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:31 pm

OK, Alkis, that's one... any more?
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby durban » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:05 pm

Never mind that, I want to know who deleted Stainy's post as well :lol:

Alkis, whilst I always admire you in both KO2 and real life I do think that you are being a bit unfair on old Noodles.

I accept your argument, but you also have to see the argument from another side.

From your side you would argue that MAN UTD keep winning the league, Liverpool ask them to play 523 all season just to make their games a bit more fun, Man Utd say NO WAY. It is up to Liverpool to learn, practice and discover a way to beat Man Utd on their own terms.

However on the flip side everyone outside Manchester wants to see someone beat Man Utd and to be honest will accept any win no matter how it comes about, as this gives us more 'fun' and gives us something to dream of.

The problem is you have two issues here. Man Utd always winning gives them something for others to Aim for, but Man Utd always winning also means people try to hard to catch them, then ultimately relalised they cannot and thus are perhaps not happy to remain in the second places...thus they give up.


No we all know that I have no issues (anymore) with people winning games and wanting to win. In all aspects of life there are winners who develop their skills to win, there are winners who are naturally born to win and then there are people who have the skills to win but not the mental attitude or vice versa, and then you just have the also rans. This is never more obvious than in KO2, some of us Also Rans still turn up as we enjoy playing, we have something in the back of our minds saying that one day we will be great, but the rest of our mind is telling us that perhaps we won't be so just enjoy the ride.

However I can clearly see (not talking at all from a personal perspective here by the way) that there is a blatant class system in the KOA, in fact there are two and I apprecaite that in the second I take up a pretty high role.....the Ancients I guess you would call the class I belong to, but the other class, the Elite (god I miss that word!) do seem to see things slightly different to those who aren't Elite or Professional :lol: and whilst there is nothing wrong with this I do believe that at times they really need to see where the Sub Elite player is coming from. They are not trying to take away your status, they are not trying to criminalise you or demote your achievements in any way at all, they are just trying to voice their opinion as to how they would like to play KO2.....and we kill those people :lol:

Seriously tho, I played KO2 from the day it was released on my Atari ST with my best mate for what must have been 5 years every weekend. We played with Random Pitch, random wind and created our own tactics and had it not been for each of those factors then perhaps 5 years would only have been 1 or maybe 2 at a push (I hope this is making itself clear) thus part of me would love to have that time back where the game was competitive but in another way. It was me against him and EVERY match matttered. And that competetiveness made it a whole load of fun (and sometimes it got nasty!!!)

But in a tournament I can see that players sometime lose that competetiveness and start playing for fun simply because they cannot compete or enjoy the game like the used to, so they look for what may make it more fun for them, or allow them to compete.

All I am saying is that this great game (and I am the first person when a world cup comes around who says LEAVE THE RULES ALONE!) can be played in many many ways, and I think the new players need to apprecaite that the top players have put too much time and effort in to just want to play for fun, but at the same time the top players also need to just step aside and let the new players have there requests aired, and maybe even get there way once in a while when it doesn't really matter just to ensure that the base we have for KO2 remains as strong as it can be.

Now this is the point where someone mentions the amount of people at the previous world cups and how the numbers grow and grow...this is true, but all things will grow overtime, and I believe the number of people we are losing grows at a far more substantial rate...yes we get some back, but not many.

These arguments, regardless of your side, always end up with people disliking the game for whatever reasons.

I say we all just get along, take on each others views, let people have their way once in a while and then just beat the living hell out of them on the KO2 pitch no matter what the settings are!

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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby durban » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:09 pm

That was a great post, I managed to totally contradict the message I was trying to get accross..

Let me sum up my contradictory points.

1) Everyone please stop arguing as there is no point

2) Everyone please let people argue their point.

This was not aimed at Alkis by the way, it just started with his name, I just meant it as a guide to getting along in the world of KO2.

:lol:
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby Noodlebug » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:49 pm

Thanks for the support Mark, both contradictory points are absolutely spot on. However I probably shouldn't have allowed this argument to start by rehashing my pet campaign in a thread where it's totally off-topic and irrelevant in any event! So I apologise for that. I don't blame Alkis for snapping back, I've responded to those points I violently disagree with in private and don't want to drag the argument out here!

So back on topic - hows about a big Well Done Lads to Garry and Steve for not panicking in the face of catastrophe and saving the day yet again!
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby durban » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:54 pm

To be honest I wasn't supporting anyone against anyone, just saying how it seems to me.

And yes well done on sorting out a new venue so quickly......
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby Jon G » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:39 am

alkis, regardless of my views on the matter i don't see why you felt the need to patronise and insult stephen. if anytime a relative newbie voices an opinion (in a reasonable, measured way) they get shouted down simply because it's a point that was made previously somewhere in the vast Annals of the forum then it's no wonder people get put off this community. we haven't all made 4 zillion posts you know?
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby JamesHBeard » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:50 am

Jon G wrote:alkis, regardless of my views on the matter i don't see why you felt the need to patronise and insult stephen. if anytime a relative newbie voices an opinion (in a reasonable, measured way) they get shouted down simply because it's a point that was made previously somewhere in the vast Annals of the forum then it's no wonder people get put off this community. we haven't all made 4 zillion posts you know?


Well I strongly support Alkis on this one.

Logging onto this forum and having to read the same old discussions that were had years ago, time after time.. its boring and repetitive and certainly off putting for any ko2 interest from my perspective....

I can understand newer members wanting to air their views and rightly so..but.... this forum lacks the capability to keep long drawn out topics easily accesible so they dont have to search for them and subsequently they will create repeat topics on the same subjects.

I am through getting involved in rules discussions as all my arguments for and against are somewhere on this forum, in multiple topics.. my response nowadays is that if things change then they change without me as I cant be arsed to discuss and argue the same old shit year after year.....
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby alkis21 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:09 pm

Jon G wrote:alkis, regardless of my views on the matter i don't see why you felt the need to patronise and insult stephen. if anytime a relative newbie voices an opinion (in a reasonable, measured way) they get shouted down simply because it's a point that was made previously somewhere in the vast Annals of the forum then it's no wonder people get put off this community. we haven't all made 4 zillion posts you know?


Here's what Stephen wrote:

Noodlebug wrote:It's a pipe dream of course, I keep getting told that there is a majority of KO2 players who would refuse to ever play in a tournament that wasn't standard settings... I'd like to know who some of you are! :) No doubt the same people who complain about routine lobs, and of course autoslides!


If that's not "insulting and patronising", I don't know what is. That was what I responded to, not "the relative newbie voicing an opinion". This is not the first time that Stephen adopts the "why am I wasting my breath" attitude in his posts, I could provide links but instead I'll repeat another member's quote: Nobody argues with him, so he argues with himself. Check the previous page again and you will see that my response to his first post was much more serene. His next post however was anything but expressed "in a reasonable, measured way".

Stephen I'm not ignoring your PM I just prefer replying in public. I'm sorry but Ι can't be convinced that you have the majority's interest in mind. Just like most people here, you're thinking of yourself and the mates you play often with and that's understandable. Just like the Rankings; people demand that they reflect their abilities and the abilities of their best friends and couldn't care less for the others. On the other hand, people like me and Robert and others who have been here since 2001 must think of EVERYONE, and that includes regulars, people who haven't played in ages and may or may not return, and people who have not joined the KOA yet and will demand explanations from us in the future. Much like you do now. I guarantee to you that the more our tournaments deviate from the standard Kick Off 2 option, the more people will not bother to join in the years that follow.
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby Robert » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:09 pm

I agree with the content of Alkis's post, but not the aggression levels.

However, we should always be aware of how we treat new people. I can sympathise with the predicament of Noodlebug here (and believe me, he's not someone I normally sympathise with).

Are we saying that he should go back and read 6 years' worth of posts before stating his opinion?
Are we saying that it was OK for us to question what settings we should use, 6 years ago, but it's wrong for him to question it simply because he arrived later?

I always get pissed off when the UK and USA say "HEY CHINA!! POLLUTION IS WRONG!! STOP DEVELOPING!!"

The fact is, we had our industrial revolutions 200 years ago. Is it fair of us to expect China to stay as an agrarian peasant society because they arrived at theirs later?

Alkis, you know that 6-7 years of KOA precedent is on your side here. We are not about to get light wind because Noodlebug says so. So there's no need to give it the 'fight them on the beaches' speech just yet.

Look....watch how I do it:

Stephen.....this is how we have always done it. You can say what you like, but we are not about to change it because of you. Deal with it. Have a nice day. :)
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby gdh82 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:12 pm

I'm gonna side-step the wider dispute here and just pop my head about the KOA trenches to thank Noodles:

Noodlebug wrote:So back on topic - hows about a big Well Done Lads to Garry and Steve for not panicking in the face of catastrophe and saving the day yet again!


Huge credit must go to Steve for finding this venue and saving the UKC bacon! M A J O R R E L I E F ! :)
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby alkis21 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:13 pm

We posted simultaneously Robert, check what I wrote above you.

Robert Swift wrote:Look....watch how I do it:

Stephen.....this is how we have always done it. You can say what you like, but we are not about to change it because of you. Deal with it. Have a nice day. :)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, let me repeat something that everyone should keep in mind: It is not true that nothing ever changes in the KOA. New rules are adopted every year. We just tend to be cautious in our changes.
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby Noodlebug » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:47 pm

I'm neither expecting nor hoping for changes in major competitions (as I explicitly said) and as Robert kindly re-emphasised, if I did I certainly would be wasting my breath. I know that. (Despite Alkis's perceptions, I'm not stupid).

But I would like to play some more exciting settings occasionally, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with encouraging other people to see the benefits in the hope I might persuade them to play me at a few games or a small tournament? Why should I be lambasted for doing so? Particularly when I've seen other people (and no, not me, Alkis) complain about machinistic lobs + routines for which there are perfectly playable settings within the game which render them a lot less effective.

Anyway I was wrong to raise the topic in here because it's off topic, I've already apologised and attempted to take the ongoing argument (and any personal criticism I have of Alkis) private. Doesn't look like it worked, though.

Much as I'd like to thank people for their support I tried that already with Mark and it didn't go down too well... but it's nice to see more people taking an objective view instead of cliquing up on me.

Perhaps it might be wise for a moderator to take the whole debate (starting from my off-topic rant!) out of this thread so we don't put anyone else off joining the KOA? You can continue the Bug-hunt in its own thread!
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Re: UK Championships 2008 | Birmingham | Discussion

Postby durban » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:14 pm

Noodles, unfortunately an action of support in the KOA is normally seen by the other side as an action of UN support :)

So I don't like taking thanks for supporting someone :lol:

Look we are all right, I like the idea of playing with Wind, and I like the idea of keeping everything standard in tournaments.

I agree that a tournament with Wind and random pitches would be a lot more fun for ME but I also appreciate that it would possibly put people off and wouldn't be a lot more fun for most other players...

I guess in this world we really have to take advice from those who have made the most effort to attend tournaments, set up tournaments and support the KOA in general.

My only issue with the topic was that, if you don't know him better, Alkis' reply did seem a little harsh but it wasn't meant to be in anyway. And on the flip side, Noodlebug I guess you also need to just refrain from having the last word in a vs. the world debate (if you see what I mean).

I can see everyones points, the problem is no one can see mine :( :( :(
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