Greece: Will this nightmare ever end?

[Abyss]

Feel ashamed for the coincidence of being born on a specific longitude and latitude?

I don't feel ashamed for anything that I'm not responsible for. There is a tendency in Greece (on the opposite side to the "IMF go away" people) to try to shift the responsibity (well, the blame actually) from those who make the decisions to those that maybe have tolerated corrupted benefits to people they know. Someone who doesn't report his cousin who cheats in his taxes doesn't have the same responsibility as the minister that rises to power by means of lying, cheating public money and betraying his country. (Not to mention that I can't even blame someone who cheats on his taxes anymore - such is the discrepancy between what the state offers us to what they tax as for. )

I don't sympathize with the whole "IMF go away" movement but I understand them (lets not go to the discussion on whow many of those protesting have the right to complain, since many are part of the problem, may are part of the Greece that I detest) and I can't hold it against them that they have no solution. Who has?

Anyway, even if we were to feel ashamed for things that our country does, I don't think that the whole EU thing is one of them. Invented stats to enter the EU? So what? As if we live in a sealed box and nobody else knew...

Apparently, I don't see that the situation in Greece is just a financial problem. It seems to me to be much more than that - like a global exercise of power and financial control, the consequences of which, as we live them here, are filtered by a bunch of corrupt and (probably) incompetent politicians.

[alkis21]

I see your point Spyros. But I've heard a million times in my life the phrase "I'm proud of my country"; what I am saying is that if one can be proud of something he had no involvement in, one should also be able to feel shame too when the situation is different.

But I agree with you (and I explained in my previous posts) in that I accept no part of the blame for the situation.

What we disagree on is the part about "fixing" our stats in order to enter the EU. I stand by my belief that this makes us the scum of Europe and we should be nuked for it. If 5 years ago the Greeks heard that they had to give a few million Euro to, say, Bulgaria because they'd lied about their deficit we'd be burning their flags all over Athens and attack Bulgarians who lived in Greece daily. I'm calling a spade a spade here; we never belonged in Europe and we have no business in it. The IMF officials who examined the Greek national budget of previous years proclaimed that although Greeks knew how much they were supposed to say they spent, nobody bothered to keep tract of what was actually spent and called it a 3rd world country practice. That's exactly what I think of us.

[Tripod]

Obviouly too complicated a subject to fit into a few sentences. But you do not need to be overly ashamed. Rodolfo said "they deserve it" - but the reality is, we all deserve it, we'll all face the same problems sooner or later and ("saving") Greece has nothing to do with it. The Spanish, the Brits, the French, the Germans. What about Japan? Greece's national debt as % of the GDP is nothing compared to Japan. Worldwide national debts are greater than all other markets combined. The only "civilised" country I know with a comparatively small debt is Australia and the only country I know that for a while has now been making surpluses and paying off (some of) its debt is Norway, thanks to oil.

I may have mentionend it somewhere before but I thoroughly recommend Channel 4 documentary series "The Ascent of Money". The second episode is about how bonds were invented by the Italian city states to wage war against one another and what a bad idea it turned out to be and yet we're still doing it on an ever increasing scale. On Youtube, 2nd episode starts at 51:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY8g_IsI_gY

The city states loved waging war against one another but the citizens neither wanted to fight themselves (so they hired mercenary armies to do the work for them) nor were they prepared to pay higher taxes - so somebody came up with the great idea of instead of a "war tax", the states would just borrow the money from their citizens and pay interest on it. No points for guessing how it ended - even in peace years the states were running deficits, had to borrow more and more money to just pay the interest, essentially a huge Ponzy scheme which finally collapsed. But that didn't stop other governments trying the same scheme again and again. Watch more of the documentary to see how the Scotsman John Law devised one of the grandest Ponzy schemes of all times for France which plunged the country into financial chaos and eventually led to the French Revolution. In parts eerily similar to how the ECB is acting today.

I'm definitely on the left of the political spectrum but national debt is a cancer and eventually people have to pay the price. Nothing wrong with Keynes, the government should spend more than it earns in tough years but it should run a surplus the rest of the time and pay off any debts. But no, it's too easy to just keep on spending a lot and taxing little and instead borrowing the money. That'll work for 20 years, maybe 50 years, maybe even 100 years if you don't get too greedy but the more you owe, the harder the fall and that's what poor Greece is experiencing now, but the rest of us will follow. If we could start from scratch - the debtors won't allow us, of course - it'd be a lot easier. Want to spend more, want to offer social security which is a good idea? Tax the people (and companies) accordingly. Nothing wrong with a marginal tax rate of 100% - you can earn, say, up to 1 million Euros a year and that's simply enough, nobody needs more than that. And the same goes for companies, of course. What, they'll stop creating jobs because of higher taxes and lower profits? Bullshit, the only reasons companies exit is to make a profit, they don't need an incentive. If that sounds radical to you you've been brainwashed (I'm looking at you, Rodolfo ).

Greece is now between a rock and a hard place. Go bankrupt and pretty much all is gone, continue cutting spending and raising taxes... well, there's no end to it. Right now you're still running a large yearly deficit, despite all the measures, it somehow has to turn into a surplus which means more and more hardship. The only consolation I can offer is that the rest of us have to follow soon and it'll even things out again. All our governments allow us to lead a wealthier life than we can afford and it won't go "unpunished" for ever.

[alkis21]

Nothing wrong with a marginal tax rate of 100% - you can earn, say, up to 1 million Euros a year and that's simply enough, nobody needs more than that. And the same goes for companies, of course. What, they'll stop creating jobs because of higher taxes and lower profits? Bullshit, the only reasons companies exit is to make a profit, they don't need an incentive. If that sounds radical to you you've been brainwashed (I'm looking at you, Rodolfo ).

The eternal "left" argument: "take the money from the people who can afford to give it". The Robin Hood approach, always stated as a brilliant idea that nobody ever thought of before.

If you tax the large companies, they'll eventually take their business elsewhere, as in to another country. There is a reason why large corporations practically run countries: they don't need to bribe the politicians, they can simply blackmail them. Who will assume the political cost of 10,000 people losing the job because a company decided to move to a more tax friendly country?

[Rodolfo]

I knew this would end in a political confrontation

Rodolfo said "they deserve it"

Not my particular point of view, I expressed it as a general idea in the rest of the world, and tried to remark how unfair and ilogical that comment was when coming from, for example, Spain.

I'm definitely on the left of the political spectrum (...)

That is great for you, who can afford it.

Nothing wrong with a marginal tax rate of 100% - you can earn, say, up to 1 million Euros a year and that's simply enough, nobody needs more than that. And the same goes for companies, of course. What, they'll stop creating jobs because of higher taxes and lower profits? Bullshit, the only reasons companies exit is to make a profit, they don't need an incentive. If that sounds radical to you you've been brainwashed (I'm looking at you, Rodolfo ).

Marvellous. 100%!!! Perhaps you forget to consider one simple aspect: the money collected by a 100% tax would be ZERO. Nobody would keep on working once you get to that level, because normal humans work for their own profit. Once you discard profit, you discard the activity you wanted to tax. That only goes unless you efectively abolish freedom and reinstate slavery, in order to save mankind, of course. That was always the Left plan: saving mankind by screwing individuals.

And thanks for calling me brainwashed! To be honest I also think that of many others, just because they see things in a different way, but at least I do not say it

[manicx]

They announced a few hours ago that the tax on properties will be for ever. Tonight I won't even have the strength to get to bed...

[Tripod]

Ok, so if you can't raise taxes - then you'll just have to cut spending. Screw pensions, you cannot afford them. Screw cozy government jobs, you cannot afford them. Screw free education and so on and so forth. Obviously, that approach also works.

Here's the only - sadly not too brilliant - other approach I can think of: Buy British! I mean, buy local. We have to live with the free market system, the only other options we know about are definitely worse. So the people themselves need to be made aware of this, should be taught in schools really. You cast a vote each time you buy something. If a company leaves your country (often equals little more than moves its headquarters to another country), boycott it. And if you say you can't afford to - well, then you're digging your own grave, because you'll be even less able to afford to in the future.

[Tripod]

Marvellous. 100%!!! Perhaps you forget to consider one simple aspect: the money collected by a 100% tax would be ZERO. Nobody would keep on working once you get to that level, because normal humans work for their own profit.

You did read I was talking of the marginal tax rate? So in my example, a marginal rate of 100% would start at, say, 2 million per year, and the average rate up to that point would be 50%, allowing people to earn up to 1 million net income. Obviously, people need the incentive. I'm not foolish enough to suggest everybody should earn the same, you need differences for people to strive to make more money. But I see no reason there shouldn't be a cut-off point.

I see that as preferable to a wealth tax. Though right now with the huge differences we have a one-off wealth tax would be in order. But if you have two people who earn, say, 30000 Euros per year, and one of them spends it all and the other is more prudent and saves some every year for rainy days - he shouldn't be punished for it, he shouldn't have to give half of it to the other guy.

But there's something seriously wrong with a system where most people barely scrape by while a few earn millions or even billions per year. If the system is that unhinged, we the people should step in and talk about a cut-off point, my marginal tax rate of 100%.

[Freshmaker]

I absolutely don't understand what you mean by a "marginal tax", but I guess that's my english limiting my ability to get it.
Anyhow, I am also a political leftie, and damn proud of it.

To me it's wrong to say what Rod says, that it's ok as long as you can afford it; it is when it gets hard for a community (in this context Greece) to survive economicly, you need to turn left imo. It is in such times the community really need to take care of each other, to survive. Personal gain is based on social gain.

[Freshmaker]

At the same time, I find it hard to realise what makes housing-taxes acceptable. I just don't think it makes any sense that one should pay a tax for having a roof over your head...

Oh, and another thing...
Look at what Obama said a couple of days ago. In the US, a standard worker pays about 29 % in taxes (wow...), and people making over a million dollars (I think) only pays 17 %!!!! Seriously??? Wtf? And this is something they've managed to do, because of the belief that if you let rich people keep their money, they'll make more jobs. Come on... As Obama said, if all the rich paid as much in taxes as "normal people" does, the US wouldn't have a deficit. Go figure...

[alkis21]

This thread is not going the direction I was hoping for. I wanted you guys to understand what we, your Greek friends, are going through every day and offer your moral support (or perhaps heckling). I wasn't going for a discussion on global economy.

[Tripod]

Sorry, you're absolutely right. My first post went too far, I just wanted to say that if you have to balance a budget which sadly we all have to, you should first see if you can increase revenue from the "right people", those that live very well, before cutting spending, which you also have to do, there aren't enough millionaires to tax.

But as for your current situation... of course I feel for you guys, but sadly there is little moral support I can offer. Some financial support, maybe, but I think my government is doing that already. For me it is a crash I had predicted - living in my own little world, so to speak - for Germany, it plays out as expected. Of course I wonder where it's going from here on in - obviously a lot of demonstrations, obviously you'll elect somebody else next chance you have and thus maybe the forever of the new property tax will be a very short forever.

[Freshmaker]

Totally see what you say Alkis. And if it helps in any way, moral support comes in bucketloads dude. There's no way I'm thinking that any of the greek koa'ers are corrupt or slow workers or in any way has been taking part in what's totally fucked up your beautiful country. From what I know of you, you are all pure quality, stand up individuals, educated and people I'd vouch for any time.

Your problem is simply that you're living in a system that stinks, and I wish I could say that I see a (quick and easy) solution.